Unenforceability & Template Letters II

Dojo_Jo_Jo

pepe2008 wrote: »

Anybody seen this one before?

I have made CCA requests to Barclaycard and they have come back with 1) somebody ELSES full financial details....thanks Bcard! that means that I now have a promise of NO int or Charges until repaid ( and I hold those details to secure that:D)
2) the usual blank Agreement claiming that the '1983 Amendments to the CCA ' say that that is OK.........rubbish as we know.

Yesterday I was sent this...accompanied by blank Terms and Conditions.
Quote,
With reference to the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) we have provided you with sufficient information to allow you to understand our position.
The CPR does not confer an automatic entitlement to documents before proceedings start.
CPR 31.16 provides that a party may apply to the Court for pre-action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. the application must be supported by evidence- and the usual order is for the Applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the respondents costs, together with the respondents costs of complying with any order that is made as a result ( CPR 48.1(2)).
While there is no formal obligation on our part to provide documentation in answer to Validation of Debt correspondence, we have undertaken steps tp provide you with the Contractual terms under which your Financial obligations arise.

....my reaction is b****cks, READ the Consumer Credit Act Barclaycard!

.....any thoughts?

What a great Forum, thanks to all contributors and my HERO N.I.D !

Just started the whole process with cc providers. Barclaycard are the first to respond to my request for CCA. First reply quoted my outstanding balance , credit limit and next payment due with a blank set of T & C. Also promised a set of current T & C were in the post (now received). But I had exactly the same para as you pepe2008 re the Civil Procedure Rules all of which clearly does not comply with my request for my CCA. I have just sent the template dealing with this and await their comment (CCA Dispute - T & C Supplied, on page 1)

Seems to me all of these companies are just wasting more of their money resisting a law they know they have broken! They should just put their hands up and accept the consequences in the hope that they can claw back a bit of respect from the public.

Interested to know more why Point 1 means no interest or charges from now on?

pepe2008

Dojo_Jo_Jo wrote: »

What a great Forum, thanks to all contributors and my HERO N.I.D !

Just started the whole process with cc providers. Barclaycard are the first to respond to my request for CCA. First reply quoted my outstanding balance , credit limit and next payment due with a blank set of T & C. Also promised a set of current T & C were in the post (now received). But I had exactly the same para as you pepe2008 re the Civil Procedure Rules all of which clearly does not comply with my request for my CCA. I have just sent the template dealing with this and await their comment (CCA Dispute - T & C Supplied, on page 1)

Seems to me all of these companies are just wasting more of their money resisting a law they know they have broken! They should just put their hands up and accept the consequences in the hope that they can claw back a bit of respect from the public.

Interested to know more why Point 1 means no interest or charges from now on?

Lets just say that it became a negotiating point:D. They were the only ones still charging interest ( 4% ), after that episode we 'came to an agreement'.

impetus

I think they sent the wrong CCA - WOW screw them!:rotfl:

never-in-doubt

pepe2008 wrote: »

Anybody seen this one before?

I have made CCA requests to Barclaycard and they have come back with 1) somebody ELSES full financial details....thanks Bcard! that means that I now have a promise of NO int or Charges until repaid ( and I hold those details to secure that:D)
2) the usual blank Agreement claiming that the '1983 Amendments to the CCA ' say that that is OK.........rubbish as we know.

Yesterday I was sent this...accompanied by blank Terms and Conditions.
Quote,
With reference to the Civil Procedure Rules (CPR) we have provided you with sufficient information to allow you to understand our position.
The CPR does not confer an automatic entitlement to documents before proceedings start.
CPR 31.16 provides that a party may apply to the Court for pre-action disclosure in certain limited circumstances, which do not apply here. the application must be supported by evidence- and the usual order is for the Applicant to pay the costs of the application, including the respondents costs, together with the respondents costs of complying with any order that is made as a result ( CPR 48.1(2)).
While there is no formal obligation on our part to provide documentation in answer to Validation of Debt correspondence, we have undertaken steps tp provide you with the Contractual terms under which your Financial obligations arise.

....my reaction is b****cks, READ the Consumer Credit Act Barclaycard!

.....any thoughts?

You're spot on, they are talking bollox. The CPR 'threat' is used to allow them the chance to send a copy of the original cos if they do not and you do take it to court and they then provide it, they will be in trouble especially if they decline a CPR disclosure request.....

Its always worth bearing in mind they will say almost anything to get out of telling you the hard truth - we've messed up and you owe nothing :D

Regards to the CCA you got, come again? Are you saying they have sent you someone elses CCA? If so, do you still have it and have you reported it to Barclays or the person in question? I ask cos you can use this as a bargaining tool :eek:

never-in-doubt

terimon wrote: »

Dont really need any credit at the moment.

No mortgage.

About £2250 overdrawn but my parents said they will help and i can pay them back in my own time. I am back living with my parents. Its embarrassing having to move back in at my age but after i lost everything and split up with the missus i had no option really. Moved back down to London from oop north (Ormskirk).I am lucky they care about me to be honest.

Ok mate,

Time to pay attention! lol

The bank account default means little if you'll end up with others as well.

Ive just cottoned on, the debt was at your old address right? When you went to live with parents did you change your address or are they writing to the old address? See what i'm getting at here?

Assume that you done a change of address or whatever - what you have to decide is whether you are bothered by a default? Is the only accounts you have then with Natwest (the card and bank account)? Are you CCA anyone else?

I think we've got to establish what is best for you long term here cos you're giving mixed signals and i'm concerned that you think you'll walk away from this all hunkey-dorey which will not be the case.... :mad::mad:

Please tell me more or if you want you can ring me and i'll talk you through it.....

Dojo_Jo_Jo

N.I.B Would you be kind enough to clarify something for me?

I understand that failure to send me a true copy of my CCA and that a lack of the appropriate prescribed terms makes a debt unenforceable.

If the cc company provides a true copy of the CCA, including the correct prescribed terms, but this does not have my signature on it is it then also unlawful?

A follow up letter I have just sent contains the following text (note point 2, item b) infering that the lack of a signature makes the CCA enforceable still?

(2) There may be omitted from any such copy-

(a) any information included in an executed agreement, security instrument or other document relating to the debtor, hirer or surety or included for the use of the creditor or owner only which is not required to be included therein by the Act or any Regulations thereunder as to the form and content of the document of which it is a copy;

(b) any signature box, signature or date of signature (other than, in the case of a copy of a cancellable executed agreement delivered to the debtor under section 63(1) of the Act, the date of signature by the debtor of an agreement to which section 68(b) of the Act applies);

Surely, if there is no signature the debt/terms cannot be deemed to have been agreed by myself and becomes unenforceable?

I can't tell you how fantastic all of the advice is on this forum is, I can't stop checking to see the next contributors comments!!!!!!!

terimon

never-in-doubt wrote: »

Ok mate,

Time to pay attention! lol

The bank account default means little if you'll end up with others as well.

Ive just cottoned on, the debt was at your old address right? When you went to live with parents did you change your address or are they writing to the old address? See what i'm getting at here?

Assume that you done a change of address or whatever - what you have to decide is whether you are bothered by a default? Is the only accounts you have then with Natwest (the card and bank account)? Are you CCA anyone else?

I think we've got to establish what is best for you long term here cos you're giving mixed signals and i'm concerned that you think you'll walk away from this all hunkey-dorey which will not be the case.... :mad::mad:

Please tell me more or if you want you can ring me and i'll talk you through it.....

I know its gonna be at least 6 years of bother

Yes i did change the address. Stupid me!

I have a Barclays Bank Account which i run fine.

I have a Barclays credit card which i run fine and will continue to do so if they dont cancel it which they probably will when my accounts are defaulted.

I have a NatWest bank account with an overdraft limit of £2250 which will be over that next statement.

I have a NatWest Credit Card with a limit of £12500 but at the moment they admit is unenforceable (the one in question) taken out 13 years ago.

I have a Virgin (MBNA) Credit Card which has a limit of £9500 and i am over the limit and have missed the last two payments. I took it out on line in 2006 so i am expecting the CCA to be ok but they signed for it on 3rd November and i am still waiting.

terimon

Your right i am not quite sure what to do for the best. My parents can loan me an interest free 10k to pay money back but i dont see how this is gonna help. I have tried to talk to all my creditors but they just dont listen and dont care. I am thinking sod them.

I just dont know what the hassle will be like for the next 6 years.

What do you think is for the best?

Thanks once again.

never-in-doubt

Dojo_Jo_Jo wrote: »

If the cc company provides a true copy of the CCA, including the correct prescribed terms, but this does not have my signature on it is it then also unlawful?

Hiya,

Good point and the answer is.................

It depends

Ok, lets talk laymans terms; they can send you a true copy that may well be enforceable due to the prescribed terms being intact. They will get away with sending a 'true copy'.

However you should simply send a reply with something along the lines of 'I respectfully request that you provide me by return, a copy of the credit agreement which bears my signature. I require this as I have reason to believe that there may be discrepancies within the agreement which may leave it improperly executed.'

Doing so kinda tells them why you want to see a copy of the original. If they do not respond then you should SAR them (12. SAR Request)... if they cannot send a copy of the original at this point they will struggle to win if you went to court as they'd be breaking the DPA by not enclosing all personal data stored (s.7 DPA1998).

I suspect that the CCA isn't actually compliant.... who is the lender, what is the debt, what stage of arrears are you in (default yet?)...

never-in-doubt

terimon wrote: »

Your right i am not quite sure what to do for the best. My parents can loan me an interest free 10k to pay money back but i dont see how this is gonna help. I have tried to talk to all my creditors but they just dont listen and dont care. I am thinking sod them.

I just dont know what the hassle will be like for the next 6 years.

What do you think is for the best?

Thanks once again.

Being you live at home, would your parents stand by you if you got hassle (i.e. if a DCA called would they be daft and invite them in or would they tell them to sod off?)..... you have to think, they cannot touch you for the unenforceable debt (£12.5k) but they could send DCA for the bank account and MBNA which I assume you'll not pay either?

If I was you, i'd explain to your parents you owe almost £30k and you are going to walk away from it and in the 6 years with no credit you'll learn from your mistakes..... if they will support you by not speaking to dca's and bearing with you whilst you force them to stop calling then you'll be fine to walk away. (i hope you never told them your parents landline lol).....

Decision time - I think its pointless fighting natwest for the CC if you're going to 'hide' from the bank account and MBNA....... see my point, may as well just ignore them all.