Annex or not an annexe?!

Don74

Hi I hope someone can help.
We have recently found out we are expecting a baby. To raise some extra cash we decided to turn our 4 bedroom house into 2 flats and have a lodger in the lower flat under the rent-a-room scheme. We sought advice from an architect as we also wanted to do an attic conversion and he advised us of ways of getting around applying for planning permission for the downstairs flat, if we for example, left access to upstairs for the lodger to say they were using a bedroom.
However, as plans have now been submitted to building regs for the attic conversion, it seems we do actually need planning permission for an annex as the lodger has all their own amenities. This obviously presents us with the problem of paying 2 lots of council tax, TV license etc. We have actually already installed a shower room downstairs and a kitchen upstairs as we thought we would be able to work around the annex problem; so we now have the following options:
1. To withdraw the application for the attic conversion and hope that our existing work doesn’t come to their attention, if it does where do we stand, can they ask us to pull all the work down and would it stop there i.e. back pay of council tax etc?
2. To remove the kitchen upstairs and share the kitchen downstairs so as it will not then be classed as an annex but then we would have to charge the lodger less and this obviously isn’t ideal with a young baby going up and down every time you need something from the kitchen.
3. To apply for planning permission but if it was denied we would be back to step 1. Other problems would be the separate council tax etc. which we were hoping to avoid. The lodger would also then be an official tenant and we would have to declare the rental income.

We are likely to opt for option 1 but 3 would be ideal if the extra council tax wouldn’t be needed until the works were complete i.e. we can hold off a certain building reg for 5 years, however this is probably not the case as they would want their money as soon as it was habitable, unless I am mistaken?

This is only a temporary measure to help us get our mortgage down as we couldn’t sell our house and can’t remortgage, it seems a shame that the government do their best to make it hard for the honest, working person to dig themselves out of a hole!!
Regards Don

auntymabel

Not sure what you mean by annexe. Have you actually added anything on to your house or are you just referring to making it into flats? Have you got your lodger yet?

I expect you know this now but here it is anyway from http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/lodgers_rent-a-room.htm:

'The lodger must not have exclusive possession of a self-contained part of your property - cooking facilities and bathroom etc., need to be shared with you! You lodger agreement should give you the power to enter and clean the lodger's room, so that exclusive possession of any part of the property is avoided.'

Don74

Well they don't have exclusive possesion as we need access for services etc and can enter at any time, although we respect their privacy and try to give as much notice as we can. I don't really want to get tied into what our lodger's position is and yes we already have someone in. Another thought I had was to apply for planning permission but not do any work until after a 5year period, hence no visits from the council. This way if works we have already completed come to the attention of the council we can simply ask them to inspect at that time. Any other ideas out there as my wife just wants us to withdraw the whole application and try again in 5yrs time, I'm just scared of getting found out!

Don74

Sorry I forgot to mention what I meant by annex/annexe. We are basically partitioning our 4 bed house into a studio flat downstairs and a 2 bedroom flat upstairs, this is considered by the council of adding an annex and would be subject to it's own council tax band. Nothing externally is getting changed.

macman

If you create a self contained unit then clearly you will need PP, and the LA will consider it separately for CT. If it's not self contained then I fail to see why you need PP-though of course you would need it for the loft conversion. If I decide to put an additional kitchen in one of my bedrooms, that alone does not make the house 2 separate dwelling units. The point here is how the 2 units are accessed, if the lower unit has it's own front door (presumably via the existing outer door which would now be shared), then clearly it's a separate unit.

planning_officer

Don74 wrote: »

Another thought I had was to apply for planning permission but not do any work until after a 5year period, hence no visits from the council. This way if works we have already completed come to the attention of the council we can simply ask them to inspect at that time. Any other ideas out there as my wife just wants us to withdraw the whole application and try again in 5yrs time, I'm just scared of getting found out!

Eh? The Council will inspect the property during the course of the planning application, before it is determined. They don't come out afterwards (the planning dept) unless someone complains that it is not being built in accordance with the plans.

Have you asked the Council whether the additional annexe is likely to be acceptable if you applied? It may be that you're worrying over absolutely nothing, if it's perfectly acceptable and likely to be granted!!

edgex

what sort of weird logic are you using?
"To raise some extra cash we decided to turn our 4 bedroom house into 2 flats and have a lodger in the lower flat under the rent-a-room scheme"

surely you would have to raise a lot of extra cash to do all the conversion work, & at the end of it you havnt got the house you orignally bought.
youve then already gone & spent money getting an upstairs kitchen fitted, surely that was a waste of money?
i cant see your mortgage company going along with it either.


& did you even bother to look up what the 'rent a room scheme' is?
from what youve written, im assuming the answer is no

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/Taxes/TaxOnPropertyAndRentalIncome/DG_4017804

How the scheme works

The Rent a Room scheme is an optional scheme that lets you receive a certain amount of tax-free 'gross' income (receipts before expenses) from renting furnished accommodation in your only or main home.

Who can take advantage of the scheme?

You can choose to take advantage of the scheme if you let furnished accommodation in your only or family home to a lodger. (Your only or family home is the one where you/your family live for most of the time. A lodger is someone who pays to live in your home, sometimes with meals provided, and who often shares the family rooms.)
A lodger can occupy a single room or an entire floor of your home. However, the scheme does not apply if your home is converted into separate flats that you rent out. In this case you will need to declare your rental income to HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC) and pay tax in the normal way. Nor does the scheme apply if you let unfurnished accommodation in your home.

Don74

Thanks for all your comments. I do want to make it clear that I want as much money from the lodger as possible, this means not declaring rental income and also the lodger not having to pay council tax as then we would have to lower the rent.

In reply to macman:
I do not need planning permission for the loft conversion only building regs approval. The plans show the same entrance for both areas and I also explained that the lodger has to cross the hallway and use a bedroom upstairs, I also explained that to access the garden we have to go through the lodger's area but as far as the PP office is concerned, as long as the lodger has sole use of facilities, ie Kitchen and shower room, then it is self contained.

In reply to planning_officer:
The planning application is through my architects drawings, I'm hoping they do not actually have to visit the property maybe I'm wrong on this. After speaking to PP, they explained that the only real concern would be parking, of which their is plenty of room, perhaps they may inspect the property externally for this reason. We would need various visits from the building regs dept to follow progress on the loft conversion and that it is being built according to their regs. Your right that it may be granted but I am worried what will happen if it does get denied, I may have to pull down my existing works, even if it gets accepted I still have the problem of declaring rental income and the 2 lots of council tax etc, which was what I was hoping to avoid.

In reply to edgex:
The weird logic I'm using is to pay off my mortgage, if this is achieved and I get a loft conversion in the process, all expenses paid by the lodger then I fail to see what is weird about the logic. The lodger pays £150 a week although if anyone asks it is only £75. The works, of which I have already completed came to about £2,500 which should be paid off from the rental income in about 4 months time. I was hoping to do this for about 5 Years, I should be able to pay off £40,000 from our mortgage or at least get an attic conversion out of it. Yes you are correct that we wouldn't,t have the original house but it is quite reversible; we are looking forward to moving back into our 4 bedroom house, maybe 5 bedroom at that time. We might even be able to sell at that time if the market has recovered, something we have been trying to do since the crash. I am fully aware of the rent-a-room scheme, I am not sticking to it wholly but I want to bend the rules, as far as I'm concerned the government gets plenty from me as it is!

edgex

hmmm
is this some dafty wind up


mortgage t&c's broken
buildings & contents insurance invalid

planning permission not applied for/ignored
fire regs not followed (?)

council tax fraud
income tax fraud

planning_officer

Don74 wrote: »

I do want to make it clear that I want as much money from the lodger as possible, this means not declaring rental income and also the lodger not having to pay council tax as then we would have to lower the rent. That's being dishonest.

In reply to planning_officer:
The planning application is through my architects drawings, I'm hoping they do not actually have to visit the property maybe I'm wrong on this. After speaking to PP, they explained that the only real concern would be parking, of which their is plenty of room, perhaps they may inspect the property externally for this reason. We would need various visits from the building regs dept to follow progress on the loft conversion and that it is being built according to their regs. Your right that it may be granted but I am worried what will happen if it does get denied, I may have to pull down my existing works, even if it gets accepted I still have the problem of declaring rental income and the 2 lots of council tax etc, which was what I was hoping to avoid. Again, being dishonest.

It makes no difference who does the drawings - you, an architect or Mickey Mouse - the planning officer will always visit during the course of a planning application. It cannot be properly assessed if they don't.

So, let me get the facts right:
- you do not wish to declare the rental income,
- you do not wish to pay a second Council Tax,
- you want to carry out works 'on the sly' that require planning permission and do not wish to apply for it.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to suggest anything to help with these points and I don't see why people who pay their taxes should help those who do not wish to, for whatever reason. Unfortunately you're not just 'bending the rules' - you're being dishonest, and quite frankly I think it's a bit much to seek help on here for helping you achieve that. This is a money saving forum - that means in honest and frugal ways, not dishonest ones!

keystone

Don74 wrote: »

...........for the honest, working person to dig themselves out of a hole!!

Don74 wrote: »

I'm just scared of getting found out!

Don74 wrote: »

I still have the problem of declaring rental income and the 2 lots of council tax etc, which was what I was hoping to avoid.

HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa.