Imperial / Metric gas meter errors

w.f.

Hi Guys.
This is my first post on this forum.
I have been interested to see just how many people have been having this sort of problem.
Some having a nasty shock when they find out they are being charged in M3, rather than Ft and getting a huge cath up bill.
Others, getting charged in Ft, instead of M3, and getting a big rebate.

I have recently found that for the past 4 years, since my gas meter was changed, I have stil been charged for Ft, rather than for M3.
This only came to light when my monthly payments were eventually set at £150 and still not enough.

It looks like this is a fairly regular situation.
My power supplier is looking into this and I HOPE I am due a big refund.

However...I have seen others on this forum that are just happy to get the refund and in one case, even want to send the supplier a bunch of flowers for finding the problem ??

During the past 4 years, we have had threats of court action, warrants of enrty, house visits, upsetting phone calls, family arguments, etc etc, as well as a huge amount of money mistakenly taken to pay a debt that never existed.

The advice I have been given is that I should not feel relieved....I should be angry.
I have been told that the correct action I should take is to take this matter to court and even look to claim restitutionary damages for the distress caused.

Basically, my supplier would have to say how much money they had made from the unjust money that had taken from me. This would require them to reveal their accounts to show how much was made.
Damages for stress, harrassment etc, as well as interest for the money I did not have the use of, that I should not have had taken from me would also be added.

One thing that really does worry me, is that my supplier actually that if I had the pre payment metre fitted....as was threatened many many times...this mistake may NEVER have been detected and I would have had to re pay possibly thousands of debt that I never had!!

A far cry from me buying them choc's and flowers !!

Can anyone tell me if they think this course of action (ie court) is correct or wishful thinking ?

Cardew

I cannot see any hope of a legal action succeding..

You have a resposibility to check your own bills and they do show you the formula to work out your the kWh. It does state that you do not use the 2.83 factor if you have a metric meter.

I would stress that the opinion above is only a legal defence, and clearly the Utility company have a moral responsibility - but in court I suspect you have no case.

Even if the company were to lose the case, it would be setting a precedent to pay damages for 'distress' caused by incorrect bills.

That said if you took them to the small claims court, they might well settle a modest claim out of court to avoid the bad publicity.

w.f.

Hi, Thanks for the reply.
Your advice is certainly at the opposite end of the scale than other advice I have been given.
Whilst I have no reason at all to believe your advice may not be right, I do think that you may be wrong about any court decision in my favour may be presedent setting. I didnt think County Court decisions were presedent setting? For example, the one judge who threw out a bank charges claim vs the hundreds that allowed them ??
I am also not sure its totally my responsibility to work out my gas bill ?
The calculation for this is almost beyond virtually every "normal" customer.
Something like meter reading x 2.83 (if meter is imperial...the mistake made in my case) x correction value 1.00022 I think, x calorific value of 39.2 (which I believe changes depending on the time of year) / by 3.8 to get to KWH and then some of this is at one rate and the rest at another rate......easy isnt it??
All I believe I am liable for is making sure the actual meeting readings are correct ??

If you look at timesonline (the times newspaper online) on the money page, there is a guy who has recently taken Npower to court over incorrect billing and he was awarded £450 for basically having his payments set at £14 PCM to high. He estimated how much Npower would have made if everyone was charged £14 too much and how much interest they would have made, even if all the money was returned to the customers.

As I said earlier, many thanks for the reply.
Maybe your advice was what I SHOULD be hearing, rather than perhaps advice than I would LIKE to be hearing !
I will let you know how I get on.
Cheers

Cardew

If it doesn't sound patronising may I say a well balanced reply!

A couple of points.

I really don't accept that it is beyond 'normal' customers to work out what is no more than simple arithmetic. The only factor that the customer needs to determine is if they need to include the 2.83 factor.

If it is too complex, then they should seek advice - not least from the Utility company.

You are certainly correct that County Court judgements do not set a precedent, but I suspect a Utility company would take a judgement against them on those grounds to a higher court.

If your point is that it is too difficult for Joe Public to work out their bill, then what remedy do you suggest?

Notwithstanding the above, I wish you luck in any claim - I suspect you will get some sort of 'goodwill' compensation.

In my opinion it is the culture of the Utility companies and their attitude toward 'problem cases' like yours, that is to blame. They are simply not prepared to spend any time on investigation of complaints.

P.S. It is not your responsibility to 'work out your bill' the company do that task. They give you the method they use and the ability to check their calculations.

w.f.

Thanks Cardew.
I am not sure what I would suggest to make the working out of the bills easier, but the formula they do use, I still say, would baffle most people.
I called Npower to help with mine and even they said it would take some time as it "is not the easiest thing to work out" ! I dont think the 2.83 figure is the only difficult part of the calculation either.
How about a meter that actually reads in the same "denomination" as you get billed in ?
Ie...a meter that actually reads in KwH ?
Would that work?

Anyway, thanks again for your help.
Npower have already mentioned a good will gesture and to be fair, if the overpayment is only £50 or so, then the goodwill wont be too much.
However, If I have been harrassed for,and have overpaid by £1000, a bunch of flowers wont be good enough!!

Will let you know how I get on.

Cardew

w.f. wrote: »

How about a meter that actually reads in the same "denomination" as you get billed in ?
Ie...a meter that actually reads in KwH ?
Would that work?

I wish!

Unfortunately the calorific value(CV) of the gas in the National Grid pipeline varies between 37.5 and 43 - so a span of 12%. Measuring this with a chromatograph is complex.

Actually it would be useful if they included on your bill a statement explaining that if you have an Imperial(f3) meter each gas unit will be approx 31kWh +/- 6% and a Metric(m3) meter 11.2 +/- 6%.

Interested to see how you get on!!

ALIBOBSY

Court action is always an option, but there is no guarantee which way it would go so thats your choice. May be worth a word to a solicitor (most do free advice/initial sessions) if you are serious about it.

I do think the company should take some responsibility especially if they have ever taken any readings themselves during the period incorrectly billed. Definately worth a complaint. Don't bother over the phone as they are not authorised to be able to do anything like that. Complaints are always better in writing.
Set out all the incidents in date order, be concise and clear, don't waffle on.
I would include any times their representatives have read the meter and failed to notice the issue.

Then a brief sum up-how it has effected you and your family, and point out what you want ie. full refund, plus an amount to compensate for loss of interest and the effect on you and your family.

Consider this they have overcharged you by almost 3 times over a long period I believe they should offer some compensation, but thousands isn't on the cards. Negotiate with them and they will more than settle.

Good Luck

ali x

w.f.

Thanks Ali.
Good points well made.
Npower have been out numerous times to read the meter.
The gas bill has the correct, new meter number on it....but they are still charging me in imperial instead of metric.
Over the past 4 years, I have had 3 visits at home about my arrears at the time.
Each time, the meter was read and Npower were given the new, metric serial number of the meter.
Home visits, threats of court action including warrants of entry,threats of disconnection and numerous family "discussions" and sacrifices later, we are close to getting this horrible situation finally sorted.
I have complained to "Richburns" who Npower use to collect debts, at the way their representatives have spoken to me.
I will be taking legal advice as to whether court action would be justified.

Thanks for your reply.

dogshome

Hi w.f. - It appears from your posts that it was you who discovered you were being charged Imerial meter prices for your Metric meter readings. The first thing to do is check the last 4 years bills, (If you don't have them, n'power must supply copies if you ask), to see if what n'power are offering by way of compensating you for overcharging is a true figure. As Cardew has pointed out, the maths that convert the meters units to chargeable Kw, are variable as they account for the quality of the gas supplied over the period of the bill. However, a fair average is that one unit on an Imperial meter equates to 31.5Kw for charging, whilst a unit on a Metric meter is 11.2Kw - Go thro' the bills and on each Gas cost line, calculate the Meter units consumed as being multiplied by 11.2, and then times this by the price per unit on your tariff - the difference between your figure and the one on the bill is what you have been overcharged, (The basic difference between the two rates is 281%, but as you had to pay for the gas you have used, the overcharge is actually (only ?) 181% ! ! ). Now all this is also subject to the massive overpayments you have made in VAT
OK - Having been haressed by debt collectors, had home visits by n'power agents to inspect the meter and all sorts of grief from n'power, it was left up to you to identify thier error - You are entitled to compensation
Go over the paperwork and make a list of every letter you sent and charge £12 - Charge £8.00 for every written communication you have had from them or thier Debt Collectors -
Charge £6.00 for every phone, both incoming and outgoing - If you had to load card debt just to pay the Gas bills, then list all the interest as well - Then add a figure for stress, ( 4 years at £70 a year - £280 ?), then add a fee for the effort in compiling the bill (£60 ?)
How to get paid Write to n'power enclosing the bill and advise that you will run it thro' the Small Claims |Court if they don't reimburse you within 30 days. Phone your local Small Claims Court who send you the paperwork to fill in by post, now if it really runs up to the court process, the Court fee you pay will be £80,( which is added to your claim), but to send n'power a copy of the court paperwork together with a copy of your cheque for the fee after 20 days have elapsed, will cost very little and usually gets results, at least it has for me in the past
All the very best

Cardew

dogshome wrote: »

As Cardew has pointed out, the maths that convert the meters units to chargeable Kw, are variable as they account for the quality of the gas supplied over the period of the bill. However, a fair average is that one unit on an Imperial meter equates to 31.5Kw for charging, whilst a unit on a Metric meter is 11.2Kw - Go thro' the bills and on each Gas cost line, calculate the Meter units consumed as being multiplied by 11.2, and then times this by the price per unit on your tariff - the difference between your figure and the one on the bill is what you have been overcharged, (The basic difference between the two rates is 281%, but as you had to pay for the gas you have used, the overcharge is actually (only ?) 181% ! ! ).

Actually it is easier than that.

The difference is exactly 283% as the factor of 2.83 is already in the calculation - all the rest of the factors -CV etc - will remain the same.

So if you have been charged for say, 50,000kWh on the assumption you have had an Imperial meter instead of a metric meter you should have only been billed for 17,668kWh.

dogshome

Hi again w.f. - Cardew is quite right with his quick calculation method, but I would still go down the route of doing a calculation on every single bill, as this not only pins down how much you have overpaid in VAT , but also produces a cash-back figure that's accurate down to the last penny - And by the way, when outlining your compensation figures, I forgot to add interest on the money you have overpaid over 4 years, savings rates are on the f loor now, but MLR has been a lot higher in this 4 year period - I'll look it up and do another post.