Mains optimiser - Saves you £££??

Andy_WSM

BonandDom wrote: »

Do you know , just curious, do these units attach to the fuse box?

What we should be looking at is the electricity suppliers - they should be regulating the voltage, as they are the ones supplying more than we need. But thats a different argument altogether.

No, as Cardew pointed out and I just followed up, some appliances (heating mainly) are happier at 240V, so reducing the voltage across the board is not necessarily the right thing to do, neither is it a practical thing to do with local substations / transformers designed for 240V - I'd imagine the cost of modifying / replacing all the equipment would be prohibitive.

parody

from wiki:
"Following voltage harmonization all electricity supplied within the European Union is now nominally 230 V ± 10% at 50 Hz [1]. For a transition period (1995–2008), countries that had previously used 220 V changed to a narrower asymmetric tolerance range of 230 V +6% −10% and those (like the UK) that had previously used 240 V changed to 230 V +10% −6%[2]. Note that no change in voltage is required by either system as both 220 V and 240 V fall within the lower 230 V tolerance bands (230 V ±6%). In practice this means that countries such as the UK that previously supplied 240 V continue to do so, and those that previously supplied 220 V continue to do so. However equipment should be designed to accept any voltages within the specified range."

As for the 2 year payback (i have also seen 3-5 year mentioned, all dependent on individual circumstances). This ROI is the same as loft insulation, and that is considered a worthwhile investment especially with grants to have it done. None of these "green" measures are quick win and/or instant savings. But multiplied across time, thousands of homes in many countries the saving is great - not just in £ but in co2 which is the drive for energy companies.

As with any product there are caveats - and for this one it is related to how the circuits are wired and what your incoming voltage is already at determining your ultimate savings. But as a new standard installation item in new builds, and recent builds where circuits can separated properly, renovations, those with compatible wiring already... And how about a straight through plug or replacement plug socket for specific devices eliminating the need for an electrician. There are possibilities for the technology beyond the initial VX1 release. An indication for the demand of that type of application is shown in the enormous volumes of the plug in energy meters sold. Perhaps think of this as a patented technology (smart voltage management) rather than the specific VX1 product currently available.

One of their plans is indeed to integrate this into a consumer unit, i believe this will be the next product.

Cardew

parody wrote: »

As for the 2 year payback (i have also seen 3-5 year mentioned, all dependent on individual circumstances). This ROI is the same as loft insulation, and that is considered a worthwhile investment especially with grants to have it done. .

There is no proof that there will be payback in 30 years let alone 2 years or 3-5 years.

It really is pointless basing any discussion on the merits of this device on a ROI that is not proven.

In factories where much of the load might be electrical motors, then there will be savings - but in domestic properties?

For the device to work at all, it would appear that existing houses would have to be rewired to ensure resistive(heating) loads were not on the same ring main.

parody

I believe the ROI is based on a simple cost of installation vs anticipated average energy savings, lab based at them moment. They are currently undergoing trials with SSE with funding of £240k to ascertain the co2 saving they are allowed to claim for CERT. This will of course prove or disprove the theory, and satisfy any doubters or believers of the technology.

Cardew wrote: »

There is no proof that there will be payback in 30 years let alone 2 years or 3-5 years.

It really is pointless basing any discussion on the merits of this device on a ROI that is not proven.

In factories where much of the load might be electrical motors, then there will be savings - but in domestic properties?

For the device to work at all, it would appear that existing houses would have to be rewired to ensure resistive(heating) loads were not on the same ring main.

Cardew

parody wrote: »

I believe the ROI is based on a simple cost of installation vs anticipated average energy savings, lab based at them moment. They are currently undergoing trials with SSE with funding of £240k to ascertain the co2 saving they are allowed to claim for CERT. This will of course prove or disprove the theory, and satisfy any doubters or believers of the technology.

I am not sure of the point you are making in your posts.

It is not in dispute that there can be some savings with the device.

On the question of 'anticipated average energy savings' - anticipated by who?

It seems you want to base any discussion on a ROI claimed by yourself(or who?)

So instead of talking in terms of an ROI in 2 to 5 years, let us base any discussion on a ROI of 20 to 30 years.

Even if there are to be savings, the complications in fitting such a device to existing dwellings make it impractical.

Premier_2

parody wrote: »

.. They are currently undergoing trials with SSE ...

That letter of intent was signed in September 2008.
Ofgem gave approval for the trials in January this year.
Pre-prod units for partner evaluation were completed Q1 2009 according to the company.

What's holding this up now?

In October 2008, there was also a letter of intent signed with British Gas to trial this product "subject to successful trials". That all seems to have gone cold now. :cool:

Back in January, the company itself was declaring the following (unsubstantiated) savings:

The amount of energy saved is device specific, for example back to back testing by VPhase on fridges and freezers shows 17%, 15% on normal light bulbs and 10% on energy saving light bulbs. One digital cordless phone showed an extraordinary saving of 44%. Savings will vary dependent incoming voltage and individual devices.

Even if we accept those figures as accurate, a typical fridge freezer consumes about £350 per year (imo), 17% of which is about £60.

10% saving on energy saving light bulbs that only consume 20% of the electricity of traditional bulbs really isn't going to save much money is it?

... and even if the device saved 100% of the electrical consumption of a cordless phone, you're not going to save much are you?

So on that basis, it'll take 5 years to recoup the cost on a straight line basis ... without even considering the value of money over time.


Interestingly, my assumption of a typical fridge/freezer using £350 p/a is put into doubt, as the company also suggests that refrigeration only accounts for 15% of a typical domestic property's annual consumption, which implies that if my figure of £350 is correct, they assume an average house consumes over £2300 per year in electricity!!! :eek:

Alternatively, my assumption of annual consumption of a fridge/freezer is way ott, and so the ROI will extend proportionately.


One of the key aims of the company this year is "Increased marketing and sales efforts".

So far,this seems to have been made up of:
Late July 2009 - a freebie slot on BBC Working Lunch programme
Mid September - a freebie press release in The Times
Early October 2009 - a freebie press release in the Sunday Telegraph

... is this month going to be a freebie thread on MSE?


For those reasons, I'm not going to invest and I'm out
(... and I really do suggest you cut your losses and get out asap too)



Edit: To be fair to the company, they are also exploring ways to work with appliance manufacturers to incorporate their technology directly into those selective products. If they can do that successfully, at a realistically affordable price, and the product does indeed make the savings it claims, then they may make some progress with specialist suppliers e.g. those that manufacture fridge freezers. But that market is very competitive, and consequently very price sensitive. They are going to have to come up with something that costs a lot less money but delivers the claimed savings for that to succeed.

Cardew

Premier wrote: »

Even if we accept those figures as accurate, a typical fridge freezer consumes about £350 per year (imo), 17% of which is about £60.

.

I think you will find the typical fridge freezer consumes 350kWh so about £35 - even if it did save 17% that is £6.

http://www.carbonfootprint.com/energyconsumption.html

jenny2009

assuming the following as per http://www.vphase.com/
fridge 350 kWh per year
Low energy light bulbs 150 kWh per year
central heating pump 100 kWh per year

total 600 kWh
all those figures are rough estimates.
saving 10% = 60 kWh at .12p per kWh = £7.50

Would you pay £300 to save £7.50 per year? and that's assuming it works.

There's one born every minute.


Also I just looked at the BBC news site and OK it reduced the voltage from 250 volts to 220 volts but that is after the meter so where do the 30 volts go?. You are still paying for them.

Just like a dimmer switch that puts a resistor in series with the light, the light dims but the resistor gets hot so you still use the same amount of electricity.
Jen.

Andy_WSM

jenny2009 wrote: »

Just like a dimmer switch that puts a resistor in series with the light, the light dims but the resistor gets hot so you still use the same amount of electricity.
Jen.

Wow, your walls must get VERY hot if your dimmers are really kicking out hundreds of Watts of heat!

That's just not how dimmers work!

Derek_Duval

Andy_WSM wrote: »

Wow, your walls must get VERY hot if your dimmers are really kicking out hundreds of Watts of heat!

That's just not how dimmers work!

Correct, they work by chopping a portion of the sinewave. This method wouldn't be suitable for other appliances though, especially low energy bulbs. I've a few ideas how this unit would operate, but in any case it wouldn't be 100% efficient, so to produce a given amount of heat from a heater, it would actually cost more.
Also modern appliances with switched mode supplies work on a wide voltage range, & draw the same amount of power irrespective of the voltage. The power factor can vary with the voltage, but as households pay for KWh, not KVa, this wouldn't make a cost difference.