Public sector pensions nearly over?

gloversfan

I am currently contributing to a teachers pension and I disagree with the feeling in this thread that people on public service pensions feel that they deserve better than everyone else. Like most people, we just would like to 'know where we are' for future financial planning. I am 30 and as well as paying almost £300 / month towards my public service pension I have also set up private schemes as I feel that the state pension will not exist when I retire or will be very means tested. I know goalposts were changed for private workers but if they are to be for the public, we should be at least told in advance so we can make other arrangements. I assume also that current contributions to date couldn't be affected. As for saving money in LG as a whole, that could be done. Recently there has been a lot in the papers about cutting waste in education. Why is it then that schools are given DfSG (improvement money) every year, with a 3 yr shel life (spend or lose), but have been actively encouraged to take next years and spend it a year in advance to get local businesses and the economy going. Is that not encouraging bad financial practise and waste in local gvmt?

marklv

dzug1 wrote: »

Unfortunately I fear a more likely outcome is the freezing of salaries BELOW a certain level

If the government did that it will backfire on them.

marklv

dzug1 wrote: »

Well yes - but one conclusion you could draw from that is that the PM is underpaid

He probably is - I'm not joking. It's the most important job in the country.

dzug1

marklv wrote: »

If the government did that it will backfire on them.

It always has when they've tried it before. The last lot that is. And the lot before that.

marklv

gloversfan wrote: »

I am currently contributing to a teachers pension and I disagree with the feeling in this thread that people on public service pensions feel that they deserve better than everyone else.

Nobody has said that - certainly not me. All I want is to preserve the status quo - not calling for preferential treatment. What goes on in the private sector concerning pensions should have nothing to do with the public sector; we are not in profit making organisations accountable to shareholders. I hope you have not come here to do a party political broadcast for David Cameron et al.

gloversfan wrote: »

Like most people, we just would like to 'know where we are' for future financial planning. I am 30 and as well as paying almost £300 / month towards my public service pension I have also set up private schemes as I feel that the state pension will not exist when I retire or will be very means tested. I know goalposts were changed for private workers but if they are to be for the public, we should be at least told in advance so we can make other arrangements.

Making additional pension arrangements is eminently sensible, if you can afford to do so. However, I am sure that the teacher's pension scheme will largely stay intact, or possibly move to a career average salary one (not a big change). The state pension will remain universal but possibly move to age 70.

gloversfan wrote: »

I assume also that current contributions to date couldn't be affected. As for saving money in LG as a whole, that could be done. Recently there has been a lot in the papers about cutting waste in education. Why is it then that schools are given DfSG (improvement money) every year, with a 3 yr shel life (spend or lose), but have been actively encouraged to take next years and spend it a year in advance to get local businesses and the economy going. Is that not encouraging bad financial practise and waste in local gvmt?

I think you are in a muddle here. Money given to schools is important so that schools can improve courses, buy teaching materials etc. Are you seriously suggesting that schools should not get any money? Do you want your pupils to study from old and worn out books from 30 years ago? What do you know about financial practice? Are you a teacher or an accountant?

DVardysShadow

It is the wrong question. It should not be "Why do all these public sector people get these Fianl Salary Pension schemes". It should be "Why do I in private industry not have such a scheme?".

Essantially, the schemes are very affordable, but the bankers and financial delaers, who marklv points out, cannot bear to see a pile of money without working out a way of taking it for themselves. They have nearly completed the process for private industry - now they need to get rid of the public schemes, so no one has any basis to say "why don't we in private industry get this?".

By whinging about public sector pensions, you are contributing to making ordianry people poorer in retirement and bankers richer. It is fair enough to notice the difference, it is sound to try and get the same for yourself, but it is modern day British meaness to take it away from others and in a British way, you are only poking yourself in the eye and doing the dirty work of the bankers.

dzug1

peterg1965 wrote: »

I agree, all people who contribute to the success of an enterprise are worthy of recognition. However, it isn't MOD civil servants who are facing Taliban bullets, it isn't Police support staff who have to deal with drunken yobs, murders etc, it isn't NHS HR staff who deal with life or death decisions on a daily basis, need I go on? There is a considerable difference between 'front line' staff and those who 'support', generally on a very 'safe' 9-5 basis. Most of these activities can be outsourced successfully, that doesn't demean or undermine their value to the organisation, it reflects that their function is of a lesser risk and more easily performed by a private service provider.

You can extend this argument still further. Why not outsource those facing Taliban bullets to mercenaries? Why not outsource the police as so successfully done with half our prisons? Why the spurious distinction between front line and others?

marklv

DVardysShadow wrote: »

It is the wrong question. It should not be "Why do all these public sector people get these Fianl Salary Pension schemes". It should be "Why do I in private industry not have such a scheme?".

Essantially, the schemes are very affordable, but the bankers and financial delaers, who marklv points out, cannot bear to see a pile of money without working out a way of taking it for themselves. They have nearly completed the process for private industry - now they need to get rid of the public schemes, so no one has any basis to say "why don't we in private industry get this?".

By whinging about public sector pensions, you are contributing to making ordianry people poorer in retirement and bankers richer. It is fair enough to notice the difference, it is sound to try and get the same for yourself, but it is modern day British meaness to take it away from others and in a British way, you are only poking yourself in the eye and doing the dirty work of the bankers.

I agree 100%. There is no massive crisis that has forced companies to abandon final salary schemes that have been around since the 1950s or earlier. Yes, the rules have got stricter, but it is still perfectly possible to run these schemes, especially if the company is a big blue chip with a huge turnover. The answer is that company bosses have been bullied by the big shareholders (often large investment banks) to achieve unrealistic profit targets, and pension schemes have been sacrificed as a result. Yes - the bankers are to blame here as well. I'm not a conspiracy theorist but maybe looking up the phrase 'rothschild conspiracy' on Gooogle can give a few clues as to what we are up against.

roysterer

marklv wrote: »

No, it's not fair and it's not reasonable. If 7 out of 10 people want to inject themselves with a fatal virus, and they ask me and others to do the same, because it's 'fair and reasonable', why should I? I bl**dy well won't!!

Public sector pensions are often the only reason why many people carry on working in the public sector at all. Defined contribution pensions are not pensions at all, they are merely investment schemes where the money may or may not grow over a period of years - these schemes are practically worthless. They offer no guarantees and cannot allow an employee any possibility of planning for the future. Imposing such schemes on the public sector will see an exodus of nurses, doctors and other essential workers and probably result in the final collapse of the NHS. There will also be constant strikes and massive disruption in public services. It's a totally daft idea and utterly unacceptable to public sector workers.

Yes, we need to cut costs in the public sector and there are better ways of doing so. As I pointed out earlier in another post, billions can be saved by jettisoning paid overtime and replacing it with time off in lieu. I would also freeze the pay of all public sector workers who earn above a certain level for one year, and in the case of the very highest paid for several years. More billions saved. And yet more money could be saved by reducing the huge amounts of office space that many office based public sector workers have and replacing it with 50% desks only - i.e. 'hot desking' which would need to be booked in advance. These workers should be encouraged to work two days a week from home - perfectly possible in this day and age. Bingo! There you are - billions saved quite easily.

You acknowledge that defined contribution pensions are in your words
"NOT PENSIONS AT ALL", and "WORTHLESS", yet for thousands upon thousands of working people they are being told daily that there Final Salary Pensions are ceasing and all future entitlement will be Defined Contribution. Will the Public Sector be the only workers in this country to be on Final Salary Pension Schemes in say 5 years time? The answer to that will be NO.
I started this thread with the question WHEN will the Public Sector fall in line with the Private Sector. If you think tax payers will revolt when your
Final Salary (Full Pension at age 55) ends you are seriously mistaken. As for threatening there will be a Public Sector strike if the Government removes these unsustainable pensions you are in Fantasy Land. These pensions WILL END and the time is NOW. So take your head out of the sand join the real world we are all suffering in at the moment.
One thing I do agree with you is that People no longer can make long term retirement plans in this day and age. As for the exodus of Nurses, Doctors and Policemen yeah I'm sure they will be fighting each other to get the dream job at Tescos or Macdonalds. Just for your information there happens to be around 3 million people unemployed.
No doubt I will be expecting the usual abusive reply you retort to when someone as the nerv or cheek to have a different opinion to yours.

marklv

roysterer wrote: »

You acknowledge that defined contribution pensions are in your words
"NOT PENSIONS AT ALL", and "WORTHLESS", yet for thousands upon thousands of working people they are being told daily that there Final Salary Pensions are ceasing and all future entitlement will be Defined Contribution. Will the Public Sector be the only workers in this country to be on Final Salary Pension Schemes in say 5 years time? The answer to that will be NO.
I started this thread with the question WHEN will the Public Sector fall in line with the Private Sector. If you think tax payers will revolt when your
Final Salary (Full Pension at age 55) ends you are seriously mistaken. As for threatening there will be a Public Sector strike if the Government removes these unsustainable pensions you are in Fantasy Land. These pensions WILL END and the time is NOW. So take your head out of the sand join the real world we are all suffering in at the moment.

Hysterical nonsense. First of all, public sector workers do not all retire at 55 as a matter of course - if you believe that then you are really ignorant. Some public sector employees do take retirement at that age - normally ones who work in dangerous or physically demanding roles such as police, army, firefighters, etc. And quite rightly too. As for strikes and governments removing these pensions, we'll have to see, won't we? I think it's you who is living in fantasy land. And yes, defined contribution pensions are not genuine pensions, and with falling annuity rates you would be doing well if you can retire with £100 a week from one of these schemes.

roysterer wrote: »

One thing I do agree with you is that People no longer can make long term retirement plans in this day and age. As for the exodus of Nurses, Doctors and Policemen yeah I'm sure they will be fighting each other to get the dream job at Tescos or Macdonalds. Just for your information there happens to be around 3 million people unemployed.

People with skills such as the above don't need to work at McDonalds. They will just do their normal jobs, but in the private sector, at great cost to the public.

roysterer wrote: »

No doubt I will be expecting the usual abusive reply you retort to when someone as the nerv or cheek to have a different opinion to yours.

Oh, you poor little lamb. :rotfl: