Fireplace misselling

sco0ter

Around 11 months ago my mother in law purchased a Fireplace. She asked the company to check if she would need a flue fitted to her chimney as the fireplace was radically different to the one she had and had been told to check this first.

The company told her all checks would be done at the pre installation inspection. The inspection went ahead and we were told everything was fine and the fireplace was fitted. 7 days later the fireplace was condemned because she needed a flue fitted to her chimney. I talked to Consumers direct who told us to go to the finance company. They then said that as it was nothing to do with the purchase of the fire that we should go to the Financial ombudsman, 8 months later and now the Financial Ombudsman have said that the circumstances actually mean this is out of thier power to help but they will not give me any advice on what to do next.

Is it too late to go back and try Trading Standards??

Does anybody think I have a chance with this now??

The fireplace has never been used due to the fact that we were also not informed that an electrical point was needed so had to wait on one being fitted and the condemning of the fire happened before this was complete.

tbw

I'm a little confused - surely your first approach should have been to the idiots who surveyed and fitted the fire ?

sco0ter

tbw wrote: »

I'm a little confused - surely your first approach should have been to the idiots who surveyed and fitted the fire ?

They told us that they were not chimney experts and only fitted the fire.

The company also told us and the Ombudsman that even though we had asked for the check they did not do them and only did a smoke test and everything was fine so are not responsible. When asked should they not have told us that they didnt do the test they said NO as we should have known they didnt do this test and only supplied and fitted fires and had no responsability for the chimney.

tbw

I'm still confused - I thought you said that the company that did the installation said that ALL checks would be done prior to installation and that they said everything was fine . Are they now denying that they said that?

tbw

Another point that confuses me - why was an electrical point needed ? I assumed you meant a straightforward open fireplace for burning coal or logs - the mention of an electrical point suggests you may be referring to a gas fire with electronic ignition. If so,I thought gas fires had to be fitted by Corgi registered fitters and they should surely have known about the flue requirements ?

(Mind you, British Gas made endless boo boos when they fitted my gas fire last year!)

sco0ter

The fire place is a gas fire with electronic ignition. The fire sits right inside the chimney like a coal fire would and not hung on the wall like her old fire was. this is the reason she was told to get the chimney checked to make sure it would be ok to take a fire like this and that she would probably need a flue. Thats why she specifically asked for the Chimney Flue test.

The company is admitting that they said all checks would be carried out BUT they are saying they carried out all the tests they were REQUIRED to do in order to fit the fire and did not need to test the chimney.

They are saying that even though they said that all checks would be done and even though they admit my mother in law asked them to check the chimney they are saying it wasnt thier responsibility to do so and therefore not liable.

When questioned as to why they did not inform my mother in law they would not carry out a check on the chimney they said that she should have known they wouldnt as they only supply and fit fires and are not "chimney experts".

Pssst

This all seems relatively simple.

Company sells fire.

Sale is based on the proviso that a pre inspection indicates that your home situation is suitable for the install.

Pre inspection is done. They presumably gave initial indications that the install could go ahead but failed to mention the need for a power point. Issue no 1

The installer installs fire. Who did the installer work for? Did the fire retailer supply him? Did you pay the installation costs direct to the retailer for the installation? In effect,who was your contract for installation with? The retailer or directly with the installer?

Installer,as a qualified person,is required to install in accordance with manufs instructions with due reference to the relevant regulations and BSI documents.

So who "condemned" it and why?

The issue there is whether the Condemner rightly condemned or not?

You need to obtain a professional opinion re the quality and technical accuracy of the install and then pursue it from there.

The person doing the pre survey would presumably require at least some knowledge of installation requirement and the installer would certainly need a more advanced level of knowledge such that he could comply with the GSIUR and ensure that products of combustion were effectively being removed and where necessary,combustion air is being supplied.

Freddie_Snowbits

sco0ter wrote: »

They told us that they were not chimney experts and only fitted the fire.

So you went to Cowboys instead, pay peanuts, get Monkeys

Lass

Hi sco0ter

Sorry to hear you've been having such problems with your mother in laws fireplace.

It would be the responsibility of the fireplace company to ensure that the gas fire they were fitting was suitable for the type of chimney your MIL has. Gas fires all come with an indication of the type of flue that they will work with, and they are by no means all the same. The gas fitter, at the time of installation, should have rechecked that the fire was compatible with the chimney.

However - you don't say why you have been advised that the chimney needs to be lined (flue within the chimney essentially, just to clarify). There are various reasons why this might be - 9 times out of 10 it is because the original brick chimney is breached i.e. cracked internally, which allows the gas fumes to escape through the brickwork, instead of being emitted from the top out into the air above the house.

Technically, the gas fire installer, and therefore the company, do not have any regulatory requirement to assess the state of the chimney. Once the fire is installed, they are bound by regulations to carry out appropriate smoke tests, or pull tests, to ensure that the fumes are being drawn up the chimney. Provided this is happening, they have technically done all they are required to do.

I work for a fireplace company, and we categorically insist that customers have their chimney or flue checked before we will even assess their fireplace needs. As we do not employ chimney specialists, we advise them to get a qualified chimney sweep to carry out full checks - we recommend a couple of guys actually, who we at least know are honest and won't spin customer a tale about work needing done when their chimney is actually perfectly alright. We ask customers to provide us with an appropriate 'certificate' from their sweep, to confirm that the chimney is in good order, and to clarify what class or type it is.

Missing the requirement for a fused spur/electrical supply was shoddy, and I wonder whether they dealt with this themselves and charged extra, or whether your MIL had to get someone independent, for which of course there would have been a cost.

I'm no expert on the legal side of it unfortunately, but it might well be worth considering legal action by way of small claims - not sure if this is viable, as the goods are essentially fit for purpose, but it's worth looking into perhaps?

Hope I may have helped in some small way.

Lass x

sco0ter

Freddie_Snowbits wrote: »

So you went to Cowboys instead, pay peanuts, get Monkeys

Actually no.. Went to a company who provided the fire place and installers. £2795 is hardly peanuts for a supplied and fitted fireplace.
Not all registered gas installers or fireplace retailers will have anything to do with chimneys thats why we asked specifically if they would do it because if they didnt then we would have gone and got someone in to have it checked and rectified as the MIL was having extensive rebuilding work done as well and it would have been easier to have a flue installed at this stage rather than after a fire was fitted.

She was having interior walls removed and all walls replastered so now having to have the fire removed and a flue fitted will cost her more as now she has to have the walls around the fire replastered when it is removed and refitted.

So your assumption is wrong,

sco0ter

Lass wrote: »

However - you don't say why you have been advised that the chimney needs to be lined (flue within the chimney essentially, just to clarify). There are various reasons why this might be - 9 times out of 10 it is because the original brick chimney is breached i.e. cracked internally, which allows the gas fumes to escape through the brickwork, instead of being emitted from the top out into the air above the house.

The MIL old fireplace was condemned because of age and burner issues. When it was inspected Transco had told her that she may have issues with her chimney as there was an excess of soot behind the fireplace so told her to have it checked before any fireplaces were fitted.

After the fire was fitted she had to wait 9 days to have the electrical point fitted as well but during this time there was loads of soot falling down the chimney on to the new fire. She called Transo again and they again Condemned the fire and advised that a flue would need to be fitted to stop this. This is the part that is bothering us. the fact that she asked for this test and that they admit she asked for it but THEY decided not to do anything. They did not tell us they did not inspect the chimney or that we should get someone to they implied they would do it by saying that "all tests would be carried out at the pre instalation survey". We have also had a chimney sweep in but this has not solved the problem and even he said a flue would be needed to stop the soot falling onto the fire.

Even the company that sold the fire has admitted that we need a flue to rectify the problem but is saying it is not thier fault.

Lass wrote: »

Technically, the gas fire installer, and therefore the company, do not have any regulatory requirement to assess the state of the chimney. Once the fire is installed, they are bound by regulations to carry out appropriate smoke tests, or pull tests, to ensure that the fumes are being drawn up the chimney. Provided this is happening, they have technically done all they are required to do.

This is the point that seems to be the stumbling block. Even though we accept that they dont HAVE to check for this the fact it was specifically asked for and they Implied they would do it seems a bit backhanded and dishonest.

Remember that they have admitted that the test was asked for and that they didnt tell us they wouldnt carry it out or that they didnt carry it out or even that they didnt check chimneys as a whole and it was our fault for thinking that they did.

Lass wrote: »

Missing the requirement for a fused spur/electrical supply was shoddy, and I wonder whether they dealt with this themselves and charged extra, or whether your MIL had to get someone independent, for which of course there would have been a cost.

My MIL had to get in someone herself. the fitter used an extension cable to make sure it was working then left.