Direct Debit Guarentee Training?

fivemice

Hiya

I wondered if I have got this completely wrong, if my bank are rubbish at training their employees or something else.

My husband and I took out an advert with BT Phonebook for our business. When it was printed, the advert was half the size of the space purchased and the writing was hard to read. Not only this, but on his online entry in the BT Phonebook, you couldn't read the advert at all AND we were listed as The Computergay instead of the Computerguy :rotfl:

So, we cancelled the direct debit while we sorted out what to do about paying (or indeed, not paying) for this awful service.

A month later, £67.68 disappears from my account, making two other direct debits bounce. The £67.68 was for BT, but, errr, this was cancelled! I was told by Natwest that it was a "remote" DD and that even though I had cancelled with both the bank and BT, the money would still come out of my account and there was nothing I could do to stop them. Is this true?

This went on for 4 months (every month I "re-cancelled" the DD) including several bounced direct debits and therefore several unfair charges which upon asking for them to be removed I got told I needed to look after my money better :eek: One month I nearly lost my house because the cancelled DD being taken meant I bounced my rent cheque, and Natwest insisted they wouldn't be responsible for me losing my house as part of the reason I nearly lost my house was because I had also bounced a rent cheque a couple of months before. Now I may be just biased, but if they hadn't let the cancelled DD go out, I never would have been in that position, so yes, I think it was partly their responsibility!

Anyway, I eventually got sick of my local branch fobbing me off and went into the branch in town. I was then told I couldn't claim under the Direct Debit Guarentee (anyone know why?) and that it had to be under the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme (anyone know what this is?)

Having looked on this website http://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm my experience seems indentical to the first case study.

Now, am I in the wrong somewhere along the line or should I be writing a strongly worded letter to both branches (or higher?) about the terrible training and therefore lies they are spreading and distress they are causing.

jonesMUFCforever

Companies that run books like the Phonebook set up their own d/d under a scheme called AUDIS.
So in theory every time you cancel the d/d the company has all the resources to set it up again!
This is against the rules of the scheme and in my opinion you should write a letter to the Managing Director of the company responsible firstly advising them about the mistakes in your advert and ask what they are doing about it and secondly ask whether it is company policy to abuse the AUDIS system (if inded this is what has happened - Nat West can tell you who set it up and when).
If you get no joy go to the Banking Ombudsman office for advice. They might not deal with you direct but will offer advice as to your next course of action.
The bank should have taken your details to effect the refund re the d/d under the indemnity scheme but this still leaves you with the problem of the Phonebook entry and cancelling the d/d in no way finishes your obligation to pay.

grumbler

I'd write higher, althoug they recommend to start with the branch and go higher if you are not satisfied with the response: Contact us
You can find some helpful information here: http://www.bacs.co.uk/BPSL/directdebit/generalpublic/faqs/DC_public_FAQ.htm#Q11

Q. Can money be collected from my/our account after I have cancelled a Direct Debit Instruction?

A. No. The organisation would have to obtain your authority to reinstate a cancelled instruction.

Q. Who actually controls Direct Debit payments?

A. The bank or building society that holds your account is responsible for all aspects of the running of that account. They are therefore answerable for all payments, including those made by Direct Debit.

What they call the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme is, I think, just your right to claim the money back directly from the bank/BS:

Q. How do I get back any money paid in error?

A. If any payment is made in error, you should contact your bank or building society who are responsible for giving you a full and immediate refund - even if the original error was made by the organisation collecting the payment.

However, they recommend to cancell a DD in writing:

Q. Can I cancel a Direct Debit over the telephone or via the Internet?

A. Usually, however written confirmation may be required. We also recommend you notify the organisation concerned.

Q. What information should I provide in order to cancel?

A. The name of the organisation being paid
The branch sort code (see your cheque book)
The name(s) of the account holder(s)
Your bank or building society account number
Your customer reference with the organisation (if possible)

The more information you can give, the easier it will be for the bank or building society to action.

See also: Direct Debit - AUDDIS questions (Automated Direct Debit Instruction Service):

Q. What's different about a Direct Debit Instruction set up by AUDDIS?
A There's only one major difference with AUDDIS - the signed DDI is retained by you (the originator - my comment), not the paying bank.

YorkshireBoy

grumbler wrote:

What they call the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme is, I think, just your right to claim the money back directly from the bank/BS:

The Direct Debit Guarantee involves the bank and it's account holder. It exists to help the customer receive an unauthorised payment back from their bank.

The Direct Debit Indemnity involves the bank and the DD originator, ie an organisational scheme which allows the bank to get back their money (they have paid their customer under the Direct Debit Guarantee) from the originator. The best (although not a perfect) example can be found by searching the word 'indemnity' on the BACS site...

Q Who's responsible if a payment is made against a fraudulent signature? (this question is being asked by a DD originator who is using AUDDIS)

A You are liable. However, under the terms of the Direct Debit Guarantee, the paying bank must refund the customer immediately, and then reclaim the amount refunded from you through an indemnity claim.

http://www.bacs.co.uk/BPSL/directdebit/businesses/faqs/FAQ_auddis.htm

Edit: From the 'Glossary' on the BACS site...

59 Indemnity
A document which contains a legally binding undertaking to make payment to a paying bank in response to an indemnity claim. An indemnity, in standard form, is an essential requirement of the Direct Debit Scheme

60 Indemnity claim
A claim made by the paying bank in respect of an incorrect Direct Debit being applied to an account

http://www.bacs.co.uk/BPSL/directdebit/resources/glossary

fivemice

Apparently under this indemnity scheme I would have been waiting upto 8 weeks for my bank to return my money!! I had to insist (every month) that I needed the money right away, and they had to take it out of some kind of petty cash thing that the branch used for till errors or something.

And then this last time I was told that Natwest couldn't give me my money back until I had rang up BT in their presence and confirm that I didn't owe BT any further money (which I had previously agreed with BT in the third month of them taking the DD). Talk about degrading, it wasn't even in a back office or anything

Surely the issue was that I had cancelled the DD, it showed as cancelled on my account, I cancelled it in the branch and had written confirmation of this, not whether or not I owed BT the money?

jonesMUFCforever

fivemice wrote:

Apparently under this indemnity scheme I would have been waiting upto 8 weeks for my bank to return my money!! I had to insist (every month) that I needed the money right away, and they had to take it out of some kind of petty cash thing that the branch used for till errors or something.

And then this last time I was told that Natwest couldn't give me my money back until I had rang up BT in their presence and confirm that I didn't owe BT any further money (which I had previously agreed with BT in the third month of them taking the DD). Talk about degrading, it wasn't even in a back office or anything

Surely the issue was that I had cancelled the DD, it showed as cancelled on my account, I cancelled it in the branch and had written confirmation of this, not whether or not I owed BT the money?

This is wrong! The bank refunds your money the same day! unless there is course for concern and further investigation is warranted. It is the bank that has to wait for up to 8 weeks not the customer.

fivemice

Definitely some training needed then. My local branch manager (although, he is a real moron, always swears when I have meetings with him, and told me to look after my money better when they continually messed this DD thing up, costing me at least £250 over the 4 months it happened) told me it could be upto a week under the indemnity scheme, and the one in the city centre said it could be upto 8 weeks.

So what is the difference between claiming back under the DD Guarentee Scheme or claiming under the DD Imdemnity scheme? Why couldn't I claim under the guarentee scheme? And why did they have to verify whether I owed BT or not, surely that has nothing to do with DD that I cancelled?

Thanks for your help

YorkshireBoy

fivemice wrote:

So what is the difference between claiming back under the DD Guarentee Scheme or claiming under the DD Imdemnity scheme? Why couldn't I claim under the guarentee scheme?

Have you actually read the replies in this thread? (Clue = post #4).

fivemice

I'm sorry, I'm still pretty confused, but yes, I have read the replies!

So the Direct Debit Indemnity Scheme has nothing to do with me? Just the bank and the BT Phonebook?

If so, that is why I am confused, because the bank keeps telling me that I can't claim under the Direct Debit Guarentee Scheme, because it's not the banks fault that BT keep taking the money, and I need to claim under the Indemnity Scheme, which takes upto 8 weeks.

Am I making any sense?
PS - Because you obviously know what you're talking about (thank heavens!) could you answer this question for me "And why did they have to verify whether I owed BT or not, surely that has nothing to do with DD that I cancelled?"

Thankyou so much...

YorkshireBoy

fivemice: Your bank is giving you incorrect information (as others have pointed out on this thread). Under the Direct Debit Guarantee, your bank must refund you for an incorrectly taken direct debit - unless, as ejones999 has pointed out, there is some other reason for not doing so (which, incidentally they must inform you of).

You don't need to worry about the Direct Debit Indemnity scheme - this is the process which allows the bank to reclaim the money (they have paid you) from the DD originator, ie BT.

To resolve this matter once and for all, you'll have to take your DD instruction (which shows your guarantee) to the bank and insist they read it! If they still won't play ball, then take ejones999's advice and escalate matters - this appears to be a blatant disregard for the DD guarantee by your bank.

fivemice

Brilliant, thanks for clearing that up, you're a star.

So much for all the training they do then, because having dealt with two branches and the online telephone banking bit, they all insisted I couldn't claim under the guarentee scheme, and one of those was a branch manager!

I'll get started on my letter Thanks again, sorry for being slow