Debt & christian ethics

starnac

As christians we are tested by God. I look back to last year (my lowest point) and can see (with hindsight) God by my side. Fighting to pay back my debt has brought me closer to God than I have been in years and I thank Him for putting us in this position as i am now a better person. God has taught me a wonderful lesson and we will never be in this position again.

As mentioned before if you are struggling with the conflicts of your debt and belief maybe talk to someone in your church like an elder. They may help with your worries.

starnac

i am also not in a position to pay a 10% tithe. God will know that you are giving what you can

bookseller1980

The bone of contention called a tithe will always rumble around won't it! is In my opinion the magical 10% is not entirely money - it is time, taients and treasure. I am unable to give 10% of my treasure at the moment and the Lord knows this. However I give far more time and talents with church and volunteer work. The tithe taken to the temple in biblical days was more often an animal than hard cash!
My vicar disagrees and says it must always be 10% of our gross income but he also says that the church will wiling financially support its struggling members. Ironically he is the only person at church who has not asked how I am managing! I wonder why!
Another minister insists it is 10% of ones disposable income.

At the end of the day one has to be confident that you personally are right with God and that is only something that the individual can decide.

Hope that makes sense!

Paulgonnabedebtfree

I was trying to get my head around in what way Christian ethics regarding debt and a non believers ethics regarding debt might differ?
I've no problem with what anyone believes so long as it causes no detriment to another and that there is no attempt to push a point of view onto someone who is unwilling. I don't just apply that thought to Christianity but to any number of things.
I suppose that the story of Jesus booting moneylenders out of the temple was more about doing business at an inappropreiate time and place rather than the actual act of moneylending?

I suppose that so long as someone doesn't behave dishonestly in trying to repay debt and tries not to act in a manner that is detrimental then there wouldn't be a problem? Of course it could be argued that pursuing options such as bankruptcy or IVA could be detrimental to the lender as they don't get all their money back. If such a thing pricks someone's religious conscience then I see no reason why BR or IVA should not be pursued to make oneself legally "safe" if followed by a non-compulsory attempt to continue repaying the debts to creditors. Even though there would be no legal obligation to do so, if a small amount per month could be repaid to each creditor after a BR or IVA is completed without causing harm to ones family, then I'm sure those creditors would gladly accept such payments.
A DMP is a different animal really. Theoretically, the creditors do eventually get all their money back. It could be argued that the ones that freeze the interest for the full term should be reimbursed some type of charge after completing the DMP. Maybe this could consist of making an approximate calculation of what the money cost them to borrow on the money markets and re-imbursing that in instalments. Again, no legal obligation to do so and with the proviso that no harm is caused to family by going without basics.
As for whether some greed caused the initial debt - well none of us can change what has already happened. We can only learn from it and try to avoid a repeat.

Is that the sort of stuff that is being asked about?

Also, perhaps it would be appropriate to suspend donations to ones religion until such debt is repaid? I'm not sure if "Caesar's things to Caesar and God's things to God" is applicable here but it may be worth considering.
Some things that are lawful are not necessarily advantageous. Even though complying with the law, I can see that some people's (not necessarily Christian's) ethics may require them to go the extra mile in order for them to be at peace with themselves. Although not a Christian, I seem to have been blessed (or cursed) with a bit more conscience than average (I think so anyway but can't be totally certain of that).
The big question I always have to remind myself of is "If you know for certain that you would not be found out, would you do it (we can all have our own definition of "it"). I'm the only one who has to look at myself in the mirror and make an honest appraisal. No-one can do that bit for me.

Paulgonnabedebtfree

bookseller1980 wrote: »

The bone of contention called a tithe will always rumble around won't it! is In my opinion the magical 10% is not entirely money - it is time, taients and treasure. I am unable to give 10% of my treasure at the moment and the Lord knows this. However I give far more time and talents with church and volunteer work. The tithe taken to the temple in biblical days was more often an animal than hard cash!
My vicar disagrees and says it must always be 10% of our gross income but he also says that the church will wiling financially support its struggling members. Ironically he is the only person at church who has not asked how I am managing! I wonder why!
Another minister insists it is 10% of ones disposable income.

At the end of the day one has to be confident that you personally are right with God and that is only something that the individual can decide.

Hope that makes sense!

Although not religious (I was brought up in a crazy cult decided religion was not for me when I was a teenager), I do like your post.
God (if such an entity exists) is not for sale. It sounds to me like your vicar needs a bit of time on the poverty line without guaranteed back-up in order to get a dose of reality.
10% of disposable income sounds a lot healthier so long as disposable means just that - disposable (after housing, debts, food etc taken out of take home pay).
Whatever happened to the parable of the "widow's mite"?

Little_Vics

oh believe me - I give more than my 10% of time!! We're just in an elderly congregation of about 60-odd with only 7 of us working and able to help financially. We're just figuring out what to do.

I agree about charitable donations - we have a sponsor child and get so much joy from recieving the letters.

To be honest, I'm glad I'm not the only one in this boat so thanks heaps to all for commenting! Can we keep this going as an extra support group?

starnac

i have to admit i didn't realise tithe covered time, talent and treasure as bookseller put it. in that case i def make it in time as i do a lot as we also have a mainly ageing congregation. talent could be questionable but i do help out with anything i am able to for example i make the tea and toast at our coffee morning. not sure that's a talent in the true sense of the word but it's something i can do and therefore do it if you know what i mean

(Land_of)_Maz

you should certainly keep this thread ticking over as a constant support for like minded people, after all there are millions of thread for everythign from crafting to chocolate to dieters to runners....

fabby debate and thanks again to OP.

BitWorried_2

Hi

New here, but happened to see this thread. Prudence has it spot on. There's a lot in the Bible about money for a very good reason - Christians are no more immune to either mistakes, vices or just plain misfortune than anyone else.

There are Old Testament rules about charging interest and usury, but they are generally not considered applicable as they were for a different society to the one we live in. (eg. no spare bit of wilderness to go and build a house on without a mortgage these days.)

I think the Christian view on debt can't be separated from the view on lifestyle. We shouldn't be excessive, dishonest, greedy, or for that matter stingy and selfish. Try to get these things right and if we still find ourselves in debt (for whatever reason) then it we can be sure it isn't because of anything we should feel guilty about. It then becomes a matter of trying to manage and reduce the debt in a manner above reproach. CAP are great for this.

As an aside - MB; I used to do the accounts for one of the apparently most 'wealthy' of the CoE diocese. The vast majority of their assets are church buildings that cost a fortune to maintain but are heritage buildings and can't be modernised. They could sell them off but then where would the church schools hold their lessons or the vicars live (who, incidentally, are on ridiculously low salaries because they have a house 'provided'). Many of the investments (and buildings for that matter) are legacies which cannot be sold but generate income. The church is only wealthy on paper - not cashflow.

ILW

BitWorried wrote: »

Hi


most 'wealthy' of the CoE diocese. The vast majority of their assets are church buildings that cost a fortune to maintain but are heritage buildings and can't be modernised. They could sell them off but then where would the church schools hold their lessons or the vicars live (who, incidentally, are on ridiculously low salaries because they have a house 'provided'). Many of the investments (and buildings for that matter) are legacies which cannot be sold but generate income. The church is only wealthy on paper - not cashflow.

Whithin 3 miles of where I live, there are at least two churches which have been sold off and converted into luxury apartments. Bet that helped the cash flow.