Housing benefit cancelled On going fight

Anthillmob

you should have been called for a contrived tenancy interview when you first applied. but only if you stated on your claim form that the landlandy was a relative.

if you didnt and they had reason to believe that your landlady was a relative then they have the right to do a land registry search on the property to see if you are the or part owner. you would also have been witholding information which you state that you are not when you sign the form to make the claim.

it does also seem a bit strange that at the time of claiming the other residents suddenly all moved out. from my point of view, as an assessor, i would view this as a possible fab rication to make it seem that the place was rented out previously as rooms. but then we would look into wether anyone else renting rooms in the place had claimed HB.

they must have had good reason to investigate you and for you not to turn up for the second booked tribunal has not done you any favours.

i am not excusing them not attending the first one but to be honest i cannot see a reason for this happening as the communication regarding tribunal cases are extremely strong between the tribunalists and the local authority.

Macro_3

That is what I cannot understand. The mortgage is solely in her name and deeds are in her name. So what evidence could they have to support I part own it??

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Unless you know on what grounds their claims are based, how can you hope to go to tribunal and refute them?

All utility bills, voting register, tax bills are for the family home elsewhere. Some of the evidence they have given is that they feel my mother lived with me and that it was a family home. This is even with evidence that 3 other persons lived at the address. If I did own the property I would a requested an application for mortgage benefit (I think the interest is paid).

Their 'feelings' are not evidence.

The reason I have not gone for proffesional advice is because it seems to me they have circumstantial evidence. One reason they stated is because I used to be an Estate Agent you should have full knowledge of tenancy agreements and regualtions.........I was an receptionist so of cause I do not know. I also know I am right. The only grey area I can see is the secured loan, where I received some of the money to pay off debts and my mother used the rest to fix the roof. Proof of this is in my bank statements and receipts of the works completed. This arrangement had nothing to do with my rent or my housing circumstances apart from a non leaking roof. I do not know what type of loan it is or if it is a buy to let mortgage as this has nothing to do with me. I must state my Mother has 2 other properties where she rents out rooms as this is her line of business.

Surely if they thought it was fraud, surely they would if thrown the book at me and taken me to Court??

Why would you not go to tribunal??? what could happen then?? if the Judge does go in their favour is that the last resort for me?? You say something so serious, could the Judge take it to Court themselves or just uphold the original decision by the Council?? I am scared now, but cannot afford legal advice and the forms have already been sent so I will know which way it turns.

I would go to tribunal, but I would not do so without being fully prepared. It concerns me that you don't seem to understand exactly what has happened with your claim. Benefits are unbelievably complicated, and to be blunt you seem confused on the most basic of points. I really think that you need specialist advice to help you to understand what the LA believe to have happened and the evidence you have in order for you to defend yourself.

The 'Judge' cannot take it to court. It's not a 'Judge' as such in any case, but a chairperson at a first-tier tribunal.The process is a bit more informal than court. The tribunal may uphold the LA decision, but you will be allowed to make your case and allowances will be made for the fact that you are a layman. If the decision is upheld, you can appeal again but only if you believe the tribunal/chairperson has erred on a point of law in making his decision. This will pass your tribunal to the Upper Tier which is more akin to court.

If anyone has experience or knows what the Tribunal process is about, I would be ever so grateful for your comments. Have I been really naive in not getting professional advice??? will I get torn apart at the Tribunal???

You won't be torn apart but you need help. I suggest seeking help from Shelter, if you can, or the CAB. Both of these organisations have advisors who have experience in welfare right and tribunals who will be able to help you look at the claim and the reasons for the problems you are having and come to the tribunal with you. If you give them permission to discuss your claim with the LA (in writing, to the LA) they will be able to call the LA and could find out very quickly what has happened.

Macro_3

Anthillmob wrote: »

you should have been called for a contrived tenancy interview when you first applied. but only if you stated on your claim form that the landlandy was a relative.

if you didnt and they had reason to believe that your landlady was a relative then they have the right to do a land registry search on the property to see if you are the or part owner. you would also have been witholding information which you state that you are not when you sign the form to make the claim.

it does also seem a bit strange that at the time of claiming the other residents suddenly all moved out. from my point of view, as an assessor, i would view this as a possible fab rication to make it seem that the place was rented out previously as rooms. but then we would look into wether anyone else renting rooms in the place had claimed HB.

they must have had good reason to investigate you and for you not to turn up for the second booked tribunal has not done you any favours.

i am not excusing them not attending the first one but to be honest i cannot see a reason for this happening as the communication regarding tribunal cases are extremely strong between the tribunalists and the local authority.

Was it a tribunal she missed, or just an interview to review the appeal? I assumed the latter?

hammer123

Anthillmob wrote: »

you should have been called for a contrived tenancy interview when you first applied. but only if you stated on your claim form that the landlandy was a relative.

if you didnt and they had reason to believe that your landlady was a relative then they have the right to do a land registry search on the property to see if you are the or part owner. you would also have been witholding information which you state that you are not when you sign the form to make the claim.

it does also seem a bit strange that at the time of claiming the other residents suddenly all moved out. from my point of view, as an assessor, i would view this as a possible fab rication to make it seem that the place was rented out previously as rooms. but then we would look into wether anyone else renting rooms in the place had claimed HB.

they must have had good reason to investigate you and for you not to turn up for the second booked tribunal has not done you any favours.

i am not excusing them not attending the first one but to be honest i cannot see a reason for this happening as the communication regarding tribunal cases are extremely strong between the tribunalists and the local authority.

Thanks for your reply

Just to clear some things up. The 3 other tenants moved out just before I had a baby (obviously I was pregnant at the time) which is understandable. My mother is the sole name on the mortgage and deeds. The meeting I missed was not a Tribunal but a requested meeting (due to the 1st one them not seeing me after 2 hours waiting) this was due to work commitments and baby sitter issues. They never offered a alternative (they requested this meeting for more information to assess the appeal) . The next thing I hear is a letter saying the appeal is refused even without seeing the requested info.

Obviously not seeing all the facts it is hard for people to give comment. But if I did falsely apply for HB even though my mother lived at home of I part owned the property to pocket the extra cash and conduct a criminal act of fraud, do you really think I would go all the way to Tribunal. The only reasons I have seen is what was in the letters they sent and the statement of reasons and what housing benefit regulations I broke. These reasons I feel are incorrect in some cases and opinions (balance of probabilities being used a lot when I have facts,evidence and sworn statements) .

I personally feel they have dragged this on for 2 years and are scrapping the barrel in the hope due to all the stress and not having professional help, I will just accept it, justifying the time and cost wasted on me.

With the requesting same information, not setting alternative dates, making me wait for 2 hours, lack of communication goes some way for me to proof the incompetence on some levels of their investigation.

hammer123

Macro wrote: »

That is what I cannot understand. The mortgage is solely in her name and deeds are in her name. So what evidence could they have to support I part own it??

That's the million dollar question, isn't it? Unless you know on what grounds their claims are based, how can you hope to go to tribunal and refute them?

All utility bills, voting register, tax bills are for the family home elsewhere. Some of the evidence they have given is that they feel my mother lived with me and that it was a family home. This is even with evidence that 3 other persons lived at the address. If I did own the property I would a requested an application for mortgage benefit (I think the interest is paid).

Their 'feelings' are not evidence.

The reason I have not gone for proffesional advice is because it seems to me they have circumstantial evidence. One reason they stated is because I used to be an Estate Agent you should have full knowledge of tenancy agreements and regualtions.........I was an receptionist so of cause I do not know. I also know I am right. The only grey area I can see is the secured loan, where I received some of the money to pay off debts and my mother used the rest to fix the roof. Proof of this is in my bank statements and receipts of the works completed. This arrangement had nothing to do with my rent or my housing circumstances apart from a non leaking roof. I do not know what type of loan it is or if it is a buy to let mortgage as this has nothing to do with me. I must state my Mother has 2 other properties where she rents out rooms as this is her line of business.

Surely if they thought it was fraud, surely they would if thrown the book at me and taken me to Court??

Why would you not go to tribunal??? what could happen then?? if the Judge does go in their favour is that the last resort for me?? You say something so serious, could the Judge take it to Court themselves or just uphold the original decision by the Council?? I am scared now, but cannot afford legal advice and the forms have already been sent so I will know which way it turns.

I would go to tribunal, but I would not do so without being fully prepared. It concerns me that you don't seem to understand exactly what has happened with your claim. Benefits are unbelievably complicated, and to be blunt you seem confused on the most basic of points. I really think that you need specialist advice to help you to understand what the LA believe to have happened and the evidence you have in order for you to defend yourself.

The 'Judge' cannot take it to court. It's not a 'Judge' as such in any case, but a chairperson at a first-tier tribunal.The process is a bit more informal than court. The tribunal may uphold the LA decision, but you will be allowed to make your case and allowances will be made for the fact that you are a layman. If the decision is upheld, you can appeal again but only if you believe the tribunal/chairperson has erred on a point of law in making his decision. This will pass your tribunal to the Upper Tier which is more akin to court.

If anyone has experience or knows what the Tribunal process is about, I would be ever so grateful for your comments. Have I been really naive in not getting professional advice??? will I get torn apart at the Tribunal???

You won't be torn apart but you need help. I suggest seeking help from Shelter, if you can, or the CAB. Both of these organisations have advisors who have experience in welfare right and tribunals who will be able to help you look at the claim and the reasons for the problems you are having and come to the tribunal with you. If you give them permission to discuss your claim with the LA (in writing, to the LA) they will be able to call the LA and could find out very quickly what has happened.

Many thanks for your advice and taking the time to respond. I will be arranging to meet my local CAB next week to see what's what and bring all that I have to see what they say.

Macro_3

Good luck, let us know how you get on.

Jowo_2

Did you pay rent when you were working or just via housing benefit when you were not working? Did you have a signed tenancy agreement? What was the 'slight rise' in rent when you took over as sole tenant versus what was paid before?

http://england.shelter.org.uk/get_advice/paying_for_a_home/housing_benefit_and_local_housing_allowance/housing_benefit_if_renting_from_a_family_member#1

hammer123

Jowo wrote: »

Did you pay rent when you were working or just via housing benefit when you were not working? Did you have a signed tenancy agreement? What was the 'slight rise' in rent when you took over as sole tenant versus what was paid before?



Many thanks for the link, very useful.

I moved into the house in late 2003 and paid rent from the off. I will have to get banks statements for this period to provide evidence of the monthly outgoings that were in place well before I claimed HB. I only claimed HB in June 2005 after my maternity pay finished and my previous employers at the time were not willing to hold my job out and treated me like crap (but that is another story). They have in position my tenancy agreement in which the only thing missing was a witness signature ( I have been informed that there is no legal requirement for this, but it would of helped my case). Not sure of exact amounts but it went up about £200 per month.

Anthillmob

hammer123 wrote: »

Thanks for your reply

Just to clear some things up. The 3 other tenants moved out just before I had a baby (obviously I was pregnant at the time) which is understandable. My mother is the sole name on the mortgage and deeds. The meeting I missed was not a Tribunal but a requested meeting (due to the 1st one them not seeing me after 2 hours waiting) this was due to work commitments and baby sitter issues. They never offered a alternative (they requested this meeting for more information to assess the appeal) . The next thing I hear is a letter saying the appeal is refused even without seeing the requested info.

Obviously not seeing all the facts it is hard for people to give comment. But if I did falsely apply for HB even though my mother lived at home of I part owned the property to pocket the extra cash and conduct a criminal act of fraud, do you really think I would go all the way to Tribunal. The only reasons I have seen is what was in the letters they sent and the statement of reasons and what housing benefit regulations I broke. These reasons I feel are incorrect in some cases and opinions (balance of probabilities being used a lot when I have facts,evidence and sworn statements) .

I personally feel they have dragged this on for 2 years and are scrapping the barrel in the hope due to all the stress and not having professional help, I will just accept it, justifying the time and cost wasted on me.

With the requesting same information, not setting alternative dates, making me wait for 2 hours, lack of communication goes some way for me to proof the incompetence on some levels of their investigation.

did you call to inform them you could not attend the interview. sorry i read it as you couldnt attend the tribunal.

if you didnt call to let them know then this can look very bad in their eyes, as if you have something to hide.

without actually interviewing you myself with the questionaire we have set @ work, and its probably not the same one set for every other LA, i couldnt tell you if i thought your tenancy was contrived.

hammer123

Anthillmob wrote: »

did you call to inform them you could not attend the interview. sorry i read it as you couldnt attend the tribunal.

if you didnt call to let them know then this can look very bad in their eyes, as if you have something to hide.

without actually interviewing you myself with the questionaire we have set @ work, and its probably not the same one set for every other LA, i couldnt tell you if i thought your tenancy was contrived.

I would hope the fact I have attended 2 taped interviews and various phone calls over nearly 2 years would suggest that I was more than willing. The fact I attended a meeting and they for what ever reason didnt see me and when an alternative was made I contacted them to say I could not make it due to work commitments will hopefully look very bad on them to an independent person rather than me.