Last will & teastament - trouble ahead?

not_loaded

Dalglish44, I hope you return here sooner or later.

I forgot to mention a booklet/CD that I found very useful. It is Lawpack Self-Help Kit Power of Attorney. It is ISBN-10: 1905261691 and ISBN-13: 978-1905261697. It’s just over £11 on Amazon and well worth every penny.

Another thing I forgot to mention is that the public servants working in the Office of the Public Guardian do not give a fig about helping the public with LPA and EPA issues. A clear warning to the public (who of course pay their wages) is that they do not accept telephone calls. :rolleyes:

Your phone calls to customer services, letters, faxes and emails will routinely be ignored, so ensure that you get names, dates (and advice) carefully written down if you ever get hold of anyone.

When it gets to the complaint stage which it surely will, write to Steve Rider, Director, Applications Processing, Office of the Public Guardian, PO Box 15118, Birmingham. B16 6GX

Good luck! I’ve been driven almost insane by these people! :mad: :mad:

RAS

Dalglish44 wrote: »

The plot thickens ... my mother has just told me this evening he has asked her for an £8,000 loan and he will set up a standign order to pay it back in instalments! He and his wife both work and are saving hard for their retirement to the counryside when he reaches 50! Though given the loan request, his role as PoA and his frequent trips to view houses, makes me think his retirement might be sooner than my mother realises.

He has full access (foolishly allowed by our mum) to her bank statements and all of this is really beginning to unnerve me!
Hoping for a revocation of the PoA comes off!

It sounds to me like mother is not exactly happy with things.

If the EPA is registered, you should have been sent a form by the Public Guardians and have the right to object. I would think the situation where DB is asking for loans form mum would be enough to make them cautious and at the very least you could insist on being a joint attorney. If you were not sent the form, then I think you could fight the EPA.

Having been there and been the attorney to whom someone objected (because their interests were not represented), I am astounded that a lawyer thought fit to allow the attorney to sell the property before the EPA was regsitered with the COP.

I actualy talked mum throught the EPA (as she had asked me how she could make arrangments for me to help her manage her money) and the COP guidance notes suggest that donors should consider restricting the right of attornies to sell property unless the EPA is regsitered with the COP.

Mum can cancel the EPA any time she wants and make alternative arrrangements, but the cost of the new LPA arrangment is much higher.

You may find Help the Aged/Age Concern very helpful in advising you on the best way forward. I certainly found them very helpful.

beaujolais-nouveau

Dalglish44 wrote: »

Thanks all = one worrying development I've just picked up from the OPG website is that the EPA cannot be revoked if it is registered but can be revoked if it is un-registered. This is serious because I may not be able to resolve this - my question is, how do I find out if the EPA is registered or not? The solicitor may not share this over the phone - is there an online database? Thanks

The EPA cannot be registered with the Court of Protection until your mother is no longer compos mentis, and I think that involves obtaining medical evidence to prove her inability to manage her affairs for herself. Your mother is still compos mentis, I think you said.

Shocking as it is, the situation you describe is far more common than you might think. From personal experience, I would suggest that you act quickly to help your mother revoke the EPA (you can download the form to do so from the web http://www.clickdocs.co.uk/deed-of-revocation.htm) and then arrange for her to sign another EPA that involves all of you. You don't need a solicitor; your mother's signature has to be witnessed by someone independent, eg a social worker.

To the people here saying that if the OP's mother's assets or money are appropriated unlawfully by the brother then the OP can invoke the Fraud Act etc etc etc - that would take a lot of time and money (legal fees) and, if the money is gone, then it might be impossible. Much better to pre-empt the situation that appears to be developing.

beaujolais-nouveau

Dalglish44 wrote: »

The plot thickens ... my mother has just told me this evening he has asked her for an £8,000 loan and he will set up a standign order to pay it back in instalments! ... Hoping for a revocation of the PoA comes off!

This sounds like a crisis, and in my view you must act quickly to revoke the EPA (PoA or whatever it is). In their minds, your brother and his wife will already have spent the £8,000.

I do mean act quickly, like tomorrow.

beaujolais-nouveau

not_loaded wrote: »

Revocation is as simple as tearing it up providing it is not endorsed by the Court of Protection.

For the sake of the paper trail, I do suggest that the OP's mother signs a deed of revocation, not just tear up the EPA. Anyway, I bet it is the OP's brother not the OP's mother who actually has possession of the EPA document.

Do act quickly. I would not waste any time on trying to understand why the OP's brother is doing this. The OP can do that later, when the situation is made safer.

not_loaded

beaujolais-nouveau wrote: »

The EPA cannot be registered with the Court of Protection until your mother is no longer compos mentis, and I think that involves obtaining medical evidence to prove her inability to manage her affairs for herself. Your mother is still compos mentis, I think you said.

Shocking as it is, the situation you describe is far more common than you might think. From personal experience, I would suggest that you act quickly to help your mother revoke the EPA (you can download the form to do so from the web http://www.clickdocs.co.uk/deed-of-revocation.htm) and then arrange for her to sign another EPA that involves all of you. You don't need a solicitor; your mother's signature has to be witnessed by someone independent, eg a social worker.

To the people here saying that if the OP's mother's assets or money are appropriated unlawfully by the brother then the OP can invoke the Fraud Act etc etc etc - that would take a lot of time and money (legal fees) and, if the money is gone, then it might be impossible. Much better to pre-empt the situation that appears to be developing.

A lot of what you say is right and has been said earlier. Dalglish44 has not returned to say a word for a long time now but hopefully this thread will help others to know what to do in a difficult time like this.

Revocation really is as simple as tearing it up if it’s not registered. Nobody can submit a torn up EPA to the Public Guardian.

You don’t need to obtain medical evidence to register the EPA.

You can’t ‘sign another EPA’ as they’re replaced by LPAs now. Far more complicated. You can however, modify the old EPA.

I agree wholeheartedly concerning assets or money appropriated unlawfully. In my family my sister and brother have taken advantage of my mother in her later years. She needs her assets for future care as she has some serious health problems. Apparently my siblings think a new car is more important. :mad:

Nothing can be done about someone in sound mind being ‘persuaded’ to part with their money.

beaujolais-nouveau

not_loaded wrote: »

A lot of what you say is right and has been said earlier. ...

You don’t need to obtain medical evidence to register the EPA.

You can’t ‘sign another EPA’ as they’re replaced by LPAs now. Far more complicated. You can however, modify the old EPA.

I agree wholeheartedly concerning assets or money appropriated unlawfully. In my family my sister and brother have taken advantage of my mother in her later years. She needs her assets for future care as she has some serious health problems. Apparently my siblings think a new car is more important. :mad:

Nothing can be done about someone in sound mind being ‘persuaded’ to part with their money.

Thanks. My information dates from 2005 when one fine day I had to make a 200 mile round trip to make it possible for my mother to escape the situation in which her flat would be sold by one of my siblings - not to pay for her long-term nursing care - no, rather, to pay off that sibling's debts built up by spendthrift spouse. I was successful in putting my mother's money where it is used solely to pay for her care (she now needs 24/7 nursing, feeding by hand, and doesn't recognise anyone) in a brilliant private nursing home, and out of reach of that sibling. But that episode was incredibly shocking, and the cancelling of the EPA caused a huge split in the family.

not_loaded

beaujolais-nouveau wrote: »

Thanks. My information dates from 2005 when one fine day I had to make a 200 mile round trip to make it possible for my mother to escape the situation in which her flat would be sold by one of my siblings - not to pay for her long-term nursing care - no, rather, to pay off that sibling's debts built up by spendthrift spouse. I was successful in putting my mother's money where it is used solely to pay for her care (she now needs 24/7 nursing, feeding by hand, and doesn't recognise anyone) in a brilliant private nursing home, and out of reach of that sibling. But that episode was incredibly shocking, and the cancelling of the EPA caused a huge split in the family.

Thanks to you too for not taking offence.

We have a huge split coming our way and I have to say that I really don’t care any more. I’ve had enough of my ever greedy brother and sister.

I think it’s a painful time for a family when you have to fight each other over making straightforward ethical decisions. Well done for making the effort (and succeeding) for your mum.

I despair over my bro and sis. They are hugely religious, and yet are well into ripping off my mum. (my dad is long gone) I am constantly rounded on as the ‘non-believer’ in the family, and yet it’s only me that has my mother’s interests at heart. My brother executed a massive scam on my mum and dad years ago, and that will never be forgotten. My sister now seems to think it’s ‘her turn’.

I am spending hours currently fighting idiots at the Office of the Public Guardian, so that’s why I’m a bit on the grumpy side. These so-called public servants are making my life hell, and I’m the only one interested in doing the right thing by my mum.

Heck, they say ‘you can choose your friends but you can’t choose your family’. Never was a truer word spoken…

Dalglish44

Dear all
Thank you all so much again for the comments and suggestions - all of which I now have in hand. I have a solicitor specilaist in the field on the case - she is standing by to meet both my mother & I to basically revoke the EPA and put an LPA in place, all of which my mother wants.
Yes my mother is compis mentis and has already said 'no' to my broterh's request for a loan - he has been sniffing around asking her what has happened to the cash ISA she withdrew from the Post Office and also a credit balance on her energy bill of £300. On both counts, mum has siad both have been sorted and now on deposit in her current account (she hoping this puts him off a while.)
Disappointingly, mum failed a GP-led cognitive test yesteray with her own doctor - she was asked 10 questions (99 take awy 7, 92 take away 7, 85 take away 7 etc - she got them all right but could not repeat the saying, "no ifs, no buts and no ands" so failed the test. The GP said mum felt under pressure and has offered to repeat in a week's time.
I was so disappointed and getting more anxious because her GP sold her own house to my brother (!! - what an incestuous lot!).
Any thoughts? I was expecting questions from the GP on what is the prime minister's name etc, rather than being expected to copy two overlapping pentagon shapes onto a separate sheet!
I'm thinking of taking her to a care of the elderly doctor who may understand the cognitive ability of an 80 year old more than a GP (who seemed unsure how to test mum yesterday). Many thanks

not_loaded

From what you’ve just posted, your mother clearly has ‘the capacity’ needed for EPA/LPA purposes.

According to the OPG, any assessment undertaken on a person's capacity must start with the key principle that the person has the capacity to make the decision in question. A typical GP cognitive test is irrelevant and not the same thing at all.

Have a gander at:
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/mca/assessing-capacity.htm