"disposing of assets" (in order to reduce care home charges....)

margaretclare

After I was made redundant, and widowed, in 1992, one of the things I used to do in the next few years was to go away living with old people in their own homes as resident carer/companion/housekeeper/driver/shopper/general dogsbody. And I used to get paid for it. I wouldn't have done it for nothing, because one of the objects in doing this was to enable me to pay my own mortgage and keep the roof over my head, even though for a lot of time I had to be away from it. Probably that's why I tend to feel a bit differently about this type of question.

I have never had the type of mind that looks at other people and says 'look, I'm saving my money, why can't you save some of yours?' It's not always the case that others 'haven't been prudent'. Maybe they would have liked to be but 'stuff happened' - early illness, redundancies, all kinds of things. Therefore, I am never going to be thinking 'someone else gets it all for free and I am paying for what I get'. I am only thankful that I can pay for what I get, at the moment anyway! My first husband was the least prudent man in the world even to the extent that he 'didn't believe in' life assurance - that meant that redundancy coincidental with widowhood meant that I was really poor. My second husband is completely the opposite, and we make out - together. We're not rich, but no longer poor! He was poor when he came here in 1997, not any more.

Just going on holiday Tuesday so not much time - busy sorting things out. When we get back we're having the front drive re-laid, a local firm, £1200 - now there's a way of getting rid of some hard-earned cash! Our new shower enclosure when DH was so ill last autumn, that cost £2K. Worth every penny for extra comfort, ease of use and convenience.

Savvy_Sue

margaretclare wrote: »

I find there is never any shortage of 'ways to spend your hard-earned cash!'

I wish I could lock you in a room with my mother and not let her out until you've convinced her! :rotfl:

monkeyspanner

fiscalfreckles wrote: »

Briefly, my in laws situation is that MIL is in full time residential care, and FIL is living at home with home carer visits.

They are both self funding as their savings are beyond the Local Authority threshold.

We were advised to divide their assets, before MIL went into the home, to protect FIL's share of their savings.

He is resentful of his savings being used to pay for care and is looking for legal ways to spend some of his hard earned cash, without getting into trouble for deprivation of assets.

For example, he would like to give some money to his grandchildren, but one of the examples of things he must not do is "making large gifts to relatives"!

How large do you think they mean? Anyone know what level of sum he could reasonably and legally give?

Or any other useful advice on practical ways to use his savings?

There are several issues here but I think the main one is can your FIL give away his capital and if so how and in what kind of amounts.

If this question relates to possible future care home fees for himself any gift could be considered by the council as a deliberate deprivation of assets if there is it could be considered that his state of health at the time of the gift might give rise to a care home placement in the near future. As your FIL is having at home care at present I would advise caution as his health could be veiwed in this light. The council can recover funds from the recipient if a care home placement is needed within 6 months of the gift but it is more likely they would just assess your FIL as though he still had the money.

If the question relates to IHTthere are well defined limits that can be given away without it becoming an issue. As far as I can recall he can give away up to £3000 in any year plus unused gift allowance from the previous year can be carried forward. In addition he can give as many gifts of up to £250 as he likes but recipients receiving more than £250 in total in the year will be counted as part of the £3000 limit. There are also provisions for marriage gifts. Any gift over these limits is considered a PET (potential exempt transfer) and is reduced to zero over a period of 7 years. Any remaining gift (less reductions during the 7 years) is added back into the estate when calculating IHT.

When considering either of these situations if your FIL has any spare income after paying his living expenses he is reasonably safe giving income away as long as it does not affect his standard of living or cause him to use capital..

Your FIL is not obliged to contribute from his sole assets or income to the care fees of your MIL nor is he obliged to declare his income in relation to his wife's care. So it is important that assets are separated. It may also be worth looking at NHS continuing healthcare funding if your MIL has complex medical needs.

In relation to provision of at home care for himself if he is financing all the cost there is no obligation for him to use council provision and it may well be worth looking at private/individual employment.

Simply stepping up cash withdrawals and making multiple small gifts would probably be reasonable, after all we all get forgetful as we get older.

margaretclare

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

I wish I could lock you in a room with my mother and not let her out until you've convinced her!

Thanks for this.

I shouldn't really get on here so late - still not readjusted from Continental time and thinking in French - but tell your mother, we've just got back from a fabulous holiday mainly on the Pink Granite Coast in Brittany. What we found is that once the school holidays are over, kids back to school but weather is still good, that's when the wrinklies take their holidays. And there were some on holiday and enjoying what remains of their life, a lot older and wrinklier than we are! Some sharing a rented cottage with younger relatives, others in hotels. We do it the luxurious way - overnight ferry with outside cabin and en-suite shower, coming back we had reclining seats in the Club class lounge. Hotel room with sea view...and so on. As I said, no shortage of ways to spend money!!

Savvy_Sue

Sadly, I fear that the only way my parents will go away even for one night is if one of us picks them up from their house and drives them wherever they want to be, then stays with them throughout the trip, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

They made a stupidly early hospital appointment for my Dad at a non-local hospital (so no hospital transport), and when they found that none of us was able to help him get there it threw them into a panic. I suggested using taxis and trains to travel the night before and staying in a hotel, turning it into a mini-break, and almost had my head bitten off at the suggestion.

Well, I knew it would be tiring for them, but I also knew they could book assistance on and off the trains, but no, it was completely out of the question.

To be fair, while Mum got on OK on her last journey by train (over a year ago), the previous time was with my Dad and she found it all rather a strain when he left the tickets at home! that was when she said they wouldn't go away again unless they were picked up from home.

No, I would settle for them using taxis on a regular basis rather than only in a dire emergency, and paying for some extra help around the house, even doing jobs which they CAN do but don't enjoy, but no, 'they can cope' so they struggle on, waiting for buses, using minibus services to take them shopping which take them all round the houses before dropping them home, and so on and so forth ...

sheeps68

Not sure if this is in all areas but in my work area you can give £3000 in gifts each year with social care funding. Above that its seen as fraud.

monkeyspanner

Is that a Local Authority rule or are you thinking of the Tax gift allowance?

margaretclare

Savvy_Sue wrote: »

Sadly, I fear that the only way my parents will go away even for one night is if one of us picks them up from their house and drives them wherever they want to be, then stays with them throughout the trip, and that's not going to happen any time soon.

They made a stupidly early hospital appointment for my Dad at a non-local hospital (so no hospital transport), and when they found that none of us was able to help him get there it threw them into a panic. I suggested using taxis and trains to travel the night before and staying in a hotel, turning it into a mini-break, and almost had my head bitten off at the suggestion.

Well, I knew it would be tiring for them, but I also knew they could book assistance on and off the trains, but no, it was completely out of the question.

To be fair, while Mum got on OK on her last journey by train (over a year ago), the previous time was with my Dad and she found it all rather a strain when he left the tickets at home! that was when she said they wouldn't go away again unless they were picked up from home.

No, I would settle for them using taxis on a regular basis rather than only in a dire emergency, and paying for some extra help around the house, even doing jobs which they CAN do but don't enjoy, but no, 'they can cope' so they struggle on, waiting for buses, using minibus services to take them shopping which take them all round the houses before dropping them home, and so on and so forth ...

Sorry about this. There's no answer. It's all a question of outlook, of mental attitude. I couldn't be like your parents - it's a question of quality of life. I couldn't live like that. Some of the very elderly folk we met while we were away and got chatting to simply on the basis of hearing another English voice, would stand out as an inspiration anywhere. As you rightly say, there is help available everywhere, we saw very disabled people of all ages, out enjoying the scenery and the weather.

If we didn't have the car any more we'd definitely use taxis. In fact, what the car costs us in a year would more than cover the cost of taxis. The disadvantage then would be the loss of choice, of freedom, of spontaneity, of being able to just 'pick up and go'.

We already pay for window cleaning, for help in the garden, so what's the difference. I had a thorough 'spring clean' done by a local cleaning firm while DH was in hospital in February. They'd do it on a regular basis and I'd certainly pay for that. Housework has never been my favourite occupation!!!

Newly_retired

I wished my parents had spent more to improve their quality of life rather than leave it for me and my sister to inherit. Dad was willing to pay for a cleaner, ironing etc but mum would not allow it. She thought she could manage and did not like anyone else interfering. So my sister and I ended up trying to help out with the jobs on our visits.
They would rather enlist the help of friends for lifts than pay for a taxi. It is all a question of attitude. I kept reminding them "the war is over" even 50+ years later, but they had been poor and thrifty all their lives and weren't going to change in their old age and last days.
So by all means get FIL to spend some money to make life more comfortable and enjoyable. Excellent suggestions have already been made. Don't think about having to leave it as inheritance.

seven-day-weekend

Attitudes like this actually make me quite cross. I actually don't understand why someone should chose such a limited life when they have the werewithall to do otherwise. Or struggle along with cleaning, gardening etc, when they have the means to pay someone to do it for them so they have a better quality of life.

I'm glad to say my 75-year-old disabled sister pays for a gardener, a cleaner, a lady to help her have a bath and wash her hair and until recently a dog walker (she has now given the dog to her daughter). She has paid for a wheelchair,and a stair lift, plus alterations to her house to make it easier for her to get around. She has meals out when she wishes and can afford to give her children and grandchildren treats. She does not go far on holiday now because of her worsening disability, but three years ago she came with her son to visit me in Spain and had a great time.

What would be so noble about either not having the gardening and cleaning done, or trying to do them herself and making her disability worse? Beats me why anyone should make that choice who doesn't have to.