Replacement windows - period house in conservation area

jkgray

We moved into a "new" house about a year ago which was built around 1910 and is in a conservation area in Liverpool.

We are currently debating whether to replace the windows.

All measurements in cm.

Living room 1: 160 x 179

Living room 2 (Bay): 3 panels: Panel 1 105 x 170; Panel 2 102 x 170; Panel 3 105 x 170

Hall: 108 x 133

Bathroom: Large window - 107 x 130; Small window - 56 x 130

Bed 1: Large window - 160 x 134; Small window - 56 x 130

Bed 2: 108 x 181;

Bed 3: 136 x 164

Landing: 55 x 126

We love the current original windows and think they look great:

http://i27.tinypic.com/35l5i6g.jpg

http://i29.tinypic.com/29dbll3.jpg

http://i26.tinypic.com/288qveo.jpg

We do love the windows however most of the windows are painted shut and the few that do open fit very badly and we are starting to think it would be nice to be able to open them in the summer and not freeze to death in the winter.

Whilst we are in a conservation area, when we were buying the house we were told that the Council have relaxed the rules about replacing the windows in recent times so that so long at the windows look like the originals you can replace them even with UPVC double glazing. Quite a few of the neighbours have done so, some look a lot more like the originals than others!

I am reluctant to replace with UPVC as I am scared of losing the character of the house. However wood windows seem to be a lot more expensive. Also my dad keeps telling me I will regret getting wood (he replaced his with UPVC) when it has to be painted every few years - realistically I will not end up painting it so will have to get someone in (or my dad!).

I have found a company on the web that does timber double glazed windows that look quite like the originals:

http://www.timberwindows.com/wd/window-planner.php

but their price guide is "Timber windows and doors may cost up to three times the price of PVCu frames. As a very rough rule of thumb replacing all windows and doors in a property often works out to cost the equivalent of 5% of the property’s retail value." which would be a lot more than UPVC!

I have sought out a number of quotes from different companies by email but they seem to vary by so much

from: original looking timber windows: "For 12 softwood flush casements windows at the sizes you have provided: Constructed using FSC certified Pine. Triple laminated for stability. Fully finished with micro-porous high performance paint or stain with uv protection. Double glazed with 24mm low e argon filled glass. Fitted with high security espagnolette multi-point locking systems and butt hinges. Supply only. The total price would be £6,100.00(excluding vat & delivery). For hardwood the price would be £7400.00(excluding vat & delivery)."

To: Basic UPVC: "the price inc vat and delivery with all fixed frames apart from the bay is £1730.75"

The main question if I did UPVC would be over the georgian bars. Most seem to simply have these encapsulated between the two panes of glass which does not recreate the original look at all. I am aware some companies do raised bars (a few of the neighbours have these) but have not been able to get quote by email from any of these companies - but suspect it will be expensive as these all seem to be at the top end of the market.

Sorry to ramble on!

I would love to hear people's thoughts and experiences. :beer:

dander

Hello, I'm in a conservation area too and have had upvc replacement windows put in. (replacing really hideous upvc single glazed windows in my case). Mine have got the Georgian bars encapsulated, plus external bars glued on to the outside. The bars in between the glass have a shaped profile, rather than having that very flat look, which gives them a nice 3d look even from the inside where I don't have the external bars. I have heard a lot of bad things about external bars dropping off, but I've had mine 2 years now and have them regularly cleaned by a window cleaner, with no problems.

It sounds a minor thing, but the one thing I'd love, which you dont get with upvc, is the nice original looking window handles (or whatever they're called). But, as I say, in my case I wasn't replacing the original windows, so I didn't have those details in the first place.

Mine came to in the region of £8k for a total of 12 windows including a bay and replacing one window with french doors.

dander

Just wanted to add - my price is the cost fully fitted, not supply only.

juliescot

Our neighbour got a local, quality joiner, to build and fit replacment wooden doubles glazed windows and they look great. Money no object it would be wood every time for me

I would love to be able to afford to replace all our old wooden ones with new ones which open. We also have some stained glass windows which would be great to restore but again price precludes that.

pookienoodle

Are the windows actually rotten or just painted shut?
Would it be possible to have them repaired?
we nearly bought a house with similar windows a few years ago(the chain collapsed) the planning guy at the council gave us details of a local firm that could repair them and the quote was very reasonable.
It would be a shame to replace such wonderful windows with UPVC.

jkgray

dander wrote: »

Mine came to in the region of £8k for a total of 12 windows including a bay and replacing one window with french doors.

Thanks for the info.:beer:

Which company did you use?

jkgray

pookienoodle wrote: »

Are the windows actually rotten or just painted shut?
Would it be possible to have them repaired?
we nearly bought a house with similar windows a few years ago(the chain collapsed) the planning guy at the council gave us details of a local firm that could repair them and the quote was very reasonable.
It would be a shame to replace such wonderful windows with UPVC.

Thanks for the reply.

They are not rotten which is why I would feel even more guilty replacing them.

I have researched having them repaired on the internet but from the info I have been able to find it seems specialist companies who do this charge as much as new windows. The info available as to exact prices is limited however so it is more of an impression than actual knowledge about how much it would be for my windows in my area.

Also not sure if repair would (fully) address the inherent problem of single glazing losing a lot of heat. I realise the it might be cheaper to turn up the heating than pay for new windows but when combined with solid walls it is more a case of trying to have a warm rather than a cold house.

Would be interested however in the ballpark figure you were given?

dander

jkgray wrote: »

Thanks for the info.:beer:

Which company did you use?

Mine was a local company in Hertfordshire, so not much use for you! I'm sure the price was pretty standard though.

Chose my company by looking at what other people had put in and going with the company whose windows I thought looked best.

leveller2911

I have a small joinery workshop and mainly work in conservation areas.I don't think you can beat good quality hardwood casement windows.They WILL outlast upvc any day but it does depend on regular painting by a quality decorator and also the choice of timber too.
I wouldnt recommend softwood(pine) at all , mainly down to the fact that it is grown too fast and then kiln dried,that together with the fact that we don't get the good quality softwoods, they all go to USA as the forests of northern Scandanavia are all American owned.
Moving onto hardwoods the cheaper ones like Meranti ,Kuruing and Idigbo are very cheap but again like softwood they dont last.Sapele is better along with Iroko and probably one of the best is Cedar.So although you may pay for "Hardwood" windows they may last a little longer than softwood so if you choose hardwood choose a better one.

Paint finish is important too, Most of the best decorators in my area all use either Sadolin Superdec or Dulux weathershield.
We make timber windows with either single glazing where conservation officers won't allow sealed units or DG units with "duplex bars" (internal bars in the units) with slim glazing bars to the insides (20mm) and applied glazing bars to the outside, with this system you can't tell they are double glazed until your up close so its a good system for traditional styled windows.
Finally with good hardwoods and good paint finish there is no reason why the windows cant last at least 35 years and probably even 50 yrs.

Good luck.........Wooden windows add value to a property...upvc will de-value your property...

ps.. Just had a quick tot up , If the hardwood price was for either Cedar(Cedrella) Sapele or Iroko Then I would say it was a fair quote.I'm in East Sussex and I would charge similar but probably not finished for that price.

leveller2911

Just looked at the website link in the OP .

They company have a very well set out website but I would take issue with their approach to asking customers to think about using European Redwood (pine) because its "proved" as being sustainable where as exotic hardwoods and the FCS rating system which is trying to get rid of the illegal logging of trees in South America and Africa is "on going" and as such they can't be sure of the timbers legal or not.
Any company who is recommending European Redwood over a good Hardwood is wrong.They will NOT last half the number of years if the windows were made of a good hardwood.They go on to say Redwood(pine) is "stable" which it isnt compared to Sapele ,Cedar or Utile even.
The Redwoods(pines) that "most 100 year old British Joinery" was made of is nothing like what we use today.Back then it was slow grown and air dried , its now fast grown and kiln dried.When timber is slow grown the growth rings are close together, its heavier and more resistant and air drying takes less strength and body out of the timber.......

sorry to waffle on but I can't see any sense in costing people money in the long term........

rachbc

we are in the same boat as you. Our neighbours have gone the pvc route and even though hey are decent as pvc goes they still spoil the house imho. Other neighbours have has double glazed glass units put inside the original wooden frames- there is a bit of etxra bead added to hold the unit in but it looks ok. We are going for a temporary solution of refurbing the windows, stripping, repainting and draught proofing whilst we save for timber replacements. The windows in there have lasted 100 years - why replace them with something that will last 20 if i'm lucky?