Fixed Penalty Notice - Disproportionate

vaio

hottomato wrote: »

As I said, my main work is IT consultant
Things get very quiet during summer holiday time and I started doing the occasional bit of gardening, just once in a while. It's never been my main job

Yep, but is it a social, almost charity thing like ours or a significant part of your income?

You said no advertising, just word of mouth so that almost sounds like you only do it for people you know. Is there a significant profit element?

dacouch

It does not matter whether it is a significant amount of his income or not, if it involves an element of profit then its a business. No doubt the Inland Revenue would also not regard it as Social or almost charity.

You have to bear in mind when a lot of people start a business whether full or part time their turnover is often very low to start with an profits can be very low or non existant. It does not mean that they are not running a business though.

The OP needs to speak to his Insurers and go through the matter with them and see if there is anything they can do to help. The Insurers may regard it as a non business activity but will need to investigate the matter and then give their conclusion.

When you take out Insurance it asks you if you have any part time occupations, they ask this question to establish whether you have another employed job or a self employed business

hottomato

dacouch wrote: »

It does not matter whether it is a significant amount of his income or not, if it involves an element of profit then its a business. No doubt the Inland Revenue would also not regard it as Social or almost charity.

You have to bear in mind when a lot of people start a business whether full or part time their turnover is often very low to start with an profits can be very low or non existant. It does not mean that they are not running a business though.

The OP needs to speak to his Insurers and go through the matter with them and see if there is anything they can do to help. The Insurers may regard it as a non business activity but will need to investigate the matter and then give their conclusion.

When you take out Insurance it asks you if you have any part time occupations, they ask this question to establish whether you have another employed job or a self employed business

I've just been talking with my insurer and they were also astonished by the penalty I got considering a speeding motorist only gets 3 points
When I asked if they would have covered me at the time had I had an accident they said probably not. So I guess I have no other choice than to accept it.
The only good news is that my policy is up for renewal and its unlikely that the points will go on my license beforehand so they say it wont effect my renewal price this year. I'm getting business use and personal accident thrown in for just £20 extra.
I really expected it to be much worse. I could have even got it cheaper on a comarison site but with a higher exccess

vaio

hottomato wrote: »

I've just been talking with my insurer and they were also astonished by the penalty I got considering a speeding motorist only gets 3 points
When I asked if they would have covered me at the time had I had an accident they said probably not. So I guess I have no other choice than to accept it.
The only good news is that my policy is up for renewal and its unlikely that the points will go on my license beforehand so they say it wont effect my renewal price this year. I'm getting business use and personal accident thrown in for just £20 extra.
I really expected it to be much worse. I could have even got it cheaper on a comarison site but with a higher exccess

Hmmm, a first post from a recently registered IT consultant doesn’t use a car for business and who moonlights cutting lawns for £12.50 a go (strange but half believable) but now we have an insurance company that is surprised that you get six points for no insurance, say you were probably not covered (so obviously maybe were covered) and to cap it all say that a pending “no insurance” conviction & points won’t affect your renewal?

All gone very fishy suddenly

dacouch

hottomato wrote: »

I've just been talking with my insurer and they were also astonished by the penalty I got considering a speeding motorist only gets 3 points
When I asked if they would have covered me at the time had I had an accident they said probably not. So I guess I have no other choice than to accept it.
The only good news is that my policy is up for renewal and its unlikely that the points will go on my license beforehand so they say it wont effect my renewal price this year. I'm getting business use and personal accident thrown in for just £20 extra.
I really expected it to be much worse. I could have even got it cheaper on a comarison site but with a higher exccess

Your new Insurer whoever they are will ask if you have any convictions (Including fixed penalties) and any PENDING Convictions. By the sounds of it you have already accepted the fixed penalty so already have a conviction. It is very very important that you declare the coonviction. If you do not then there is a strong chance any future claims will not be paid and when the Insurer discovers the non disclosure they will cancel the Insurance which will make it even more difficult to obtain cover.

By the sounds of the sketchy answer your Insurer has given you it sounds like you have spoken to a normal customer services rep. There understanding of Insurance is often quote limited. What you should do is either request to speak to the underwritting department (They are unlikely to put you through though) or send a letter into them for the attention of the underwriting department and explain everything truthfully so they can look into it

hottomato

dacouch wrote: »

Your new Insurer whoever they are will ask if you have any convictions (Including fixed penalties) and any PENDING Convictions. By the sounds of it you have already accepted the fixed penalty so already have a conviction. It is very very important that you declare the coonviction. If you do not then there is a strong chance any future claims will not be paid and when the Insurer discovers the non disclosure they will cancel the Insurance which will make it even more difficult to obtain cover.

By the sounds of the sketchy answer your Insurer has given you it sounds like you have spoken to a normal customer services rep. There understanding of Insurance is often quote limited. What you should do is either request to speak to the underwritting department (They are unlikely to put you through though) or send a letter into them for the attention of the underwriting department and explain everything truthfully so they can look into it

Well I have just over a week to pay my renewal or look elsewhere
I've also got a week to hand in my license. As I understand it the penalty points will start from the date thet they are put on my license
The policeman told me it takes around 3 weeks
Is that not right?
I will look further into things with my insurance company. As it is I have told them about everything honestly so if they dont deal with it right it would be on their heads.
Its one of the better known ones and quite reputable

cyclonebri1

hottomato wrote: »

Well I alreadsy went on to Pepipoo and the only helpful link I could find there was justanswer.com
I had to pay £11 and was put tin contact with a barrister who looked at this forum and came back with the following:

No, but you weren't insured for the purpose for which the vehicle was used which is having no insurance. I suppose the fact that you did have insurance is why they gave you a lenient penalty. To be honest, that was a warning. They could have justified disqualification and fines of £500.

If you appeal you would have to pay court costs which in the Crown Court is generally around £600-£800. In addition to the enhanced fine they would probably give you


I guess that settles it then. It's hard to take but I'll have to lump it

I've always been very supportive to the police. They have a hard job keeping us all safe from crime but things like this cause me to lose some faith in the justice system.

I fully understand your take on the situation, and i think your honesty has been your downfall here.

I ask myself the questions;
Were you doing something that increased your chance of having an accident, answer NO

Were you increasing the risk on the insurer by using a 2nd vehicle, driving out of the uk, being drunk at the wheel, answer NO.

To be honest I would have lied, I would have said I was on the way to a friend/relative to do the gardening or return the mower.

Who says honesty is the best policy??

thescouselander

While everyone has been getting bogged down in the complex world of insurance policy wording I think one vital point has been missed. That is the police do not have any admissible evidence that an offence has been committed.


I am assuming the OP was not arrested and the police did not take a statement. In which case if the op has told us everything the police have no solid evidence the op is in business as a gardener. They cannot prove he was on a way to a gardening job nor can they prove he was paid (unless the op admits it in a statement at some point). All they have is the testimony of the police officer involved.

Even if the police could prove the above the OP has an insurance certificate covering him to drive a car in some capacity. Weather or not this covers his activities on the day in question is entirely dependant on the policy wording - not something the police officer would have had available at the time to make a judgement. Indeed, as demonstrated in the posts on here the answer is not straight forward.

Given all of that, is it likely the CPS would pursue a prosecution in court on such flimsy evidence - I suspect not.

hottomato - before you do anything I suggest you go and talk to a defence solicitor (not the same as a barrister) and work out your options. Driving without insurance is a serious offence and you should not just accept it without a fight.

Tally-Ho_2

To be honest, I think in this sort of case, there but for the grace of god go a lot of people who either forget to update their insurance cover, or don't think what they are doing is actually classed as a business.

I was quite surprised when I sat on a voluntary committee to help veterans which only paid basic travel expenses that I needed business cover, but it was stated in the terms and conditions for claiming mileage at 20p per mile that one needed business cover. So I got it added onto my policy but it did not increase my premium as I only did about 100 miles per year attending odd meetings.

To the OP, I think in your case rule 13 applied - ie. you were unlucky.

Tally

hottomato

Tally-Ho wrote: »

To be honest, I think in this sort of case, there but for the grace of god go a lot of people who either forget to update their insurance cover, or don't think what they are doing is actually classed as a business.

If the police wanted to have a field day catching people with inadequate insurance like in my case they just have to wait outside a car boot or collectors fair. They could catch then in the hundreds. People on car boots are getting financial reward. You can bet most of them haven't got busness insuurance and dont realized they are committing an offense
I'm sure if they did there'd be an uproar