Complicated kitchen planning and plumbing

andrew-b

Not sure if i've missed something skim reading but the biggest problem in your design that i see is the position of that radiator ..to heat all that space including a conservatory it's going to have to have a big output and to position a fridge/freezer that close to a radiator isn't a good idea - fridge/freezers next to radiators don't work as efficiently. To me the radiator in that position is a bigger issue than the pipes. Pipes can simply be insulated and it's no longer really a problem. The options as i see it for the heating are underfloor heating (either wet or electric) or plinth heaters (again wet or electric).

The gas pipe isn't really a big issue IMO.. i would have it run down from above in the corner with the water pipes (you have to deal with them anyway so one extra pipe won't make a huge difference) either passing through the wall unit itself or alongside with a filler panel to bridge gap from wall to wall unit going to below plinth height then along to the hob/oven. Between ceiling and top of wall unit and bottom of wall unit and worktop box in. [EDIT]Just noticed you mention that corner would be hassle..still i'd just bring it down in the other corner ...more boxing in i know but i'm sure you've got the space[/EDIT].Our gas pipe does a similar thing ..comes down from above around half the kitchen clipped to skirting beneath the units..stop valve beneath the oven/hob (accessible via plinth) and then pipe up behind the oven to the hob.

That there isn't a service void behind your units may not be a problem in the corners as the base unit may not need to be tight to the wall in the corners. Usually you create a corner unit by overlapping a double unit with another unit with the other unit taking up one of the two door positions of the double unit (plus a little bit extra to allow doors to open) with a internal corner kit to go round the corner - often this means dead space is created in the corner where you can then run your pipes - if not just shift the unit along a bit and adapt it with a filler panel (our kitchen has some filler panels cut from the matching plinths).

Hope that helps

Andy

pboae

We are now looking at Howden's kitchens, for the service voids.

andrew-b, I agree the radiator is a pain, but there really isn't anywhere else it can go. We can't have the floor any higher (the height is already an issue) to fit under floor heating in. Having looked at the plinth heaters they would work out too expensive.

Rad wise I was thinking of this http://www.wdbathrooms.co.uk/acatalog/Collosseum_Towel_Radiator_1800mm_x_270mm.html or possibly the next size up, but I think that one would do. Although the extension bit is called a conservatory, it's not much more than a large porch really, it's less than 6m sq.

I'm thinking now that I will box in that wall by the FF, and extend it out to 60cm, so the FF will be behind it rather than just sticking out. That'll give me somewhere to hide most of the pipes and create a bigger barrier between the FF and the rad.

andrew-b

I don't get why is floor height an issue? Either raise the whole floor or just the area not under the units and raise the units. Only issue i can think of is a step up from adjoining rooms and the cost implications.

Have you done a heat loss calculation (see http://www.diydata.com/planning/ch_design/sizing.php) for this room as my gut feel is even the radiator you link to may not be sufficient to heat the area with the amount of glazing in the room and heat loss from the "conservatory" roof. Even if it is high enough output for a room of that size i think you need several radiators.

Alternatively why not put the radiator on the opposite side of the room between DW and WM? More pipework to bring round i know but it puts it in a better position further away from the f/f.

Andy

pboae

I understand why you are concerned, but I don't think it's a problem. If you could see the set-up, including how enclosed and sheltered it all is, it would make more sense. If the whole thing was a conservatory the BTU calcs come in at 4500-6000. The old kitchen had 1 small 1500 BTU rad and the TRV was rarely above 3. The rad I have in mind is 4411 and I think it will be fine, and the big one at 5882 would be overkill. [edit to add: just realised I linked to the wrong rad before! Have fixed it now]

But, if it did turn out to be insufficient it would be relatively straight forward to add a second one opposite (between the DW and WM) later on. But as I also have to get the CH pipes to the rad in the room behind the FF, it would be a hassle to have one on that side and not the other.

The issue with the floor is that it is already higher than the rest of the house and has to be blended in to make it step free. It can just about be done now, but I can't go adding anything else to it.

andrew-b

I'm saying make a compromise and just have your one radiator between DW and WM.

Didn't realise the radiator the other side of the wall wasn't connected in though so that adds another problem. I'd still put the kitchen radiator on the opposite side of the kitchen and would either bring the pipes for the radiator in the other room down by the f/f as you were suggesting but only going through the wall to that radiator in the other room or bring them down in the other room instead.

But the issue is that a fridge/freezer gets rid of heat through the heat exchanger on the back If the room is warmed up near the heat exchanger then the fridge/freezer will have to work much harder to maintain suitable temperature inside (assuming it can actually manage to) which increases the energy consumption plus i suppose could lead to earlier failure of the compressor. Bringing out the wall to create a barrier won't really make a huge difference - your still close to the radiator in the warmest part of the room when the radiator is on. Anyway that's why i think what your suggesting isn't a good idea.. take it or leave it though it's upto you

Andy

pboae

Just thought I'd update you on this, after lots of faffing around, we finally settled on a sort of compromise. The DW is going to go round the corner by the WM and then the fridge freezer and can go where the DW is. It's not ideal, with the DW being away from the cupboards, and the FF will over hang the window slightly, but I think it's the only way we can squash everything in, without having the radiator next to the FF.

Thanks for all your help :-)