Newbie Landlord needs advice

Halliron

Hi all,

Before I get into the problem at hand, I'm just going to write a few lines on how I got to be a landlord, to give you some context. Basically I at the beginning of this year I needed to move for work reasons, however given the house price market at the time, with no buyers except for cash buyers looking for bargins, I thought it was better for the short term to rent out my house, and use the rental income to rent a new, more convenient property. So I rather fell into being a landlord, rather than through any design.

So, Last Friday evening I got a call from a tenant saying that there had been some works on the street to improve the gas pipes, and they had needed to temporarily turn off the gas supply to the property. When the Gas supply was turned back on, the boiler wouldn't start.

I immediatly called the vendor of the boiler, but their line was closed for the evening. I then called them first thing in the morning, they'd do a full repair + parts + a years cover for £300, but wouldn't be able to get someone there until the following Tuesday. I knew the tenant was unhappy about having no hot water, so I shopped around, andinstruected a company called "reactfast" who'd we'd used before, generally with positive results - who would do it for £115 (+parts), but get there that morning.

Unfortunately they then said they then cancelled until that evening, and then cancelled until Sunday morning, and then until Sunday evening. At this point the tenant called up my wife, and basically shouted down the phone at her nad was very rude. My wife was a bit fazzled by this, and was also a bit under pressure as we were at the time helping a friend move house, and agreed to let the tenant shop around for another plumber, but not to do anything without talking to her.

We got home about an hour later and called reactfast had been cancelled, she'd also left a phone message saying that she'd booked another plumber at a cost of £160.

This plumber apparently came, spent an hour having a poke around, said we needed to replace a part which he didn't have, but would come back and install for about £300. But there may be more problems - we couldn't know until the part was installed. He also said that the problem was quite likely caused by the Gas people disconnecting supply badly, as the boiler had no previous problems.

Given that this was no more than the origional quote, which included all parts + 12 months service, I decided it was better to go with them, luckily they could still come tomorrow (Tuesday), hopefulyl that will all go well, however I have two issues that I hope you can advise me on:

1) The cost of the initial call out. The tenant wants me to reimburse her of the full amount of this (+2% credit card surcharge...), where as I am only willing to reimburse her of the £115 which we had already agreed to pay. I don't feel that it's reasonable cost given that there was a plumber due that evening (notwithstanding earlier cancellations), and she didn't talk to us before doing this booking. You might think I'm being petty, but to me there's the principle as well as the cash. I'm also (I must admit) a little indignant that she took out her anger at the cancellations on us, despite the fact that when our own plumbing breaks down, we have to sit out the long wait for a plumber like everyone else..

She says that I have a contractual obligation to indemnify her, and even wrote the following:

"Furthermore, the Tenancy Agreement does not stipulate that the "assessments and outgoings in respect of the premises" have to be reasonably incurred, your duty to indemnify is there regardless. "

Is she correct?

2) It seems that the problem may have been caused by the gas company. Do I have any recourse to them? Their letter includes the following paragraph in the small print:

"Occasionally when we test your gas appliances we may find a fault, this is normally due to an unknown existing fault on the appliance. We will tell you to contact a registered gas installet. You will have to pay for this work."

This makes me worry that they'll do their best to get out of paying anything. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks in advance (sorry for such a long post, congrats to all who got through it, regardless of wether you post advice! ]

Darren

N79

No

Only if you can show that they were negligent and this caused the damage to your boiler.

Forget all the crap about being an "accidental" LL. You are a LL and you need to take your obligations on the chin as a business. Dealing with difficult Ts who have been left for a long time without hot water while your contractors faff about is part of running the business. I would suggest you join a LL association (either NLA, RLA or local affiliate) and start building a relationship with reliable local contractors.

Halliron

Hey,

Thanks for the reply. I put the "accidental landlord" part in to explain my lack of knowledge of my obligations, rather than as a way of avoiding them. I apologise if I gave that impression.

I'm happy to fulfill all my obligations, I'm just looking for clarifications as to what these are.

barnaby-bear

Halliron wrote: »

Hi all,

Before I get into the problem at hand, I'm just going to write a few lines on how I got to be a landlord, to give you some context. Basically I at the beginning of this year I needed to move for work reasons, however given the house price market at the time, with no buyers except for cash buyers looking for bargins, I thought it was better for the short term to rent out my house, and use the rental income to rent a new, more convenient property. So I rather fell into being a landlord, rather than through any design.

So, Last Friday evening I got a call from a tenant saying that there had been some works on the street to improve the gas pipes, and they had needed to temporarily turn off the gas supply to the property. When the Gas supply was turned back on, the boiler wouldn't start.

I immediatly called the vendor of the boiler, but their line was closed for the evening. I then called them first thing in the morning, they'd do a full repair + parts + a years cover for £300, but wouldn't be able to get someone there until the following Tuesday. I knew the tenant was unhappy about having no hot water, so I shopped around, andinstruected a company called "reactfast" who'd we'd used before, generally with positive results - who would do it for £115 (+parts), but get there that morning.

Unfortunately they then said they then cancelled until that evening, and then cancelled until Sunday morning, and then until Sunday evening. At this point the tenant called up my wife, and basically shouted down the phone at her nad was very rude. My wife was a bit fazzled by this, and was also a bit under pressure as we were at the time helping a friend move house, and agreed to let the tenant shop around for another plumber, but not to do anything without talking to her.

We got home about an hour later and called reactfast had been cancelled, she'd also left a phone message saying that she'd booked another plumber at a cost of £160.

This plumber apparently came, spent an hour having a poke around, said we needed to replace a part which he didn't have, but would come back and install for about £300. But there may be more problems - we couldn't know until the part was installed. He also said that the problem was quite likely caused by the Gas people disconnecting supply badly, as the boiler had no previous problems.

Given that this was no more than the origional quote, which included all parts + 12 months service, I decided it was better to go with them, luckily they could still come tomorrow (Tuesday), hopefulyl that will all go well, however I have two issues that I hope you can advise me on:

1) The cost of the initial call out. The tenant wants me to reimburse her of the full amount of this (+2% credit card surcharge...), where as I am only willing to reimburse her of the £115 which we had already agreed to pay. I don't feel that it's reasonable cost given that there was a plumber due that evening (notwithstanding earlier cancellations), and she didn't talk to us before doing this booking. You might think I'm being petty, but to me there's the principle as well as the cash. I'm also (I must admit) a little indignant that she took out her anger at the cancellations on us, despite the fact that when our own plumbing breaks down, we have to sit out the long wait for a plumber like everyone else..

She says that I have a contractual obligation to indemnify her, and even wrote the following:

"Furthermore, the Tenancy Agreement does not stipulate that the "assessments and outgoings in respect of the premises" have to be reasonably incurred, your duty to indemnify is there regardless. "

Is she correct?

2) It seems that the problem may have been caused by the gas company. Do I have any recourse to them? Their letter includes the following paragraph in the small print:

"Occasionally when we test your gas appliances we may find a fault, this is normally due to an unknown existing fault on the appliance. We will tell you to contact a registered gas installet. You will have to pay for this work."

This makes me worry that they'll do their best to get out of paying anything. Does anyone have any experience with this?

Thanks in advance (sorry for such a long post, congrats to all who got through it, regardless of wether you post advice! ]

Darren

Your tenant doesn't care about your personal life, job, who your friend's are or whether you are helping them. Your contractor didn't turn up and your tenant was left without hot water and also hanging around for your contractors (have they charged you for this time), plus have had the stress.... your dippy wife gave the tenant some sort of go ahead and was 'fazzled' - your tenant probably expected some sort of professional effective response. I hope they are also charging you for their time in arranging this (i.e. doing the management for you) and for their time wasted. Yes you should repay them in my opinion and then either learn how to manage a property or pay a letting agent if you can't to do it.

belisha-beacon

I can see both sides here...

I've never been a landlord, but have been a tenant many times! Given that the tenant had been asked to call you and check before agreeing to a particular plumber, I think that it is unreasonable of them to assume that you will pay the full amount without prior permission so you'd be justified in not paying it all.

However, given that the difference in price is not astronomical and hot water is something that does feel like a big problem when it happens (not like a cupboard door falling off, for example, where you can just avoid using it for a while), I'd be tempted just to pay the full amount to keep goodwill in your tenant/landlord relationship. It could be far more costly if your tenant decides that you're only in it for the money, and they stop feeling bothered about caring for the property as well as they might do otherwise. We've always had glowing references from our landlords and have been (I think!) very good tenants but our current landlord does everything that he can do to avoid paying out any money and when he does it's only temporary repairs that he has done himself unless he absolutely can't avoid it. Needless to say, we will be moving out as soon as we can even though we (and he) had hoped that we'd be staying on for at least three or four years.

If you do pay the whole amount, it's probably worth sending a letter to the tenant letting them know that you will pay it as a gesture of goodwill because of all the cancellations from a company that had previously been reliable, but that you must insist in future on being consulted in advance about any expenditure on the property unless it is a reasonable amount incurred as the result of an emergency.

Welshwoofs

barnaby-bear wrote: »

your dippy wife gave the tenant some sort of go ahead and was 'fazzled'

I don't think calling his wife 'dippy' is really necessary. He also said that the tenant was shouting down the phone and being rude, so the wife rather than being 'dippy' may have been stressed and intimidated and simply agreed to get the T off her back.

OP - you need to pay the full amount as your wife agreed to let the T find his/her own contractors. I'd also make sure you get a good local contractor who won't p!ss you (and therefore your tenant) around.

When you're sending the T the cheque, I'd also include a polite note asking if they can speak to you and your wife in a calm and reasonable manner in future and that shouting and rudeness, no matter what the circumstances, is not warranted.

N79

Welshwoofs wrote: »

I don't think calling his wife 'dippy' is really necessary. He also said that the tenant was shouting down the phone and being rude, so the wife rather than being 'dippy' may have been stressed and intimidated and simply agreed to get the T off her back.

I agree that the dippy remark was one to far.

OP - you need to pay the full amount as your wife agreed to let the T find his/her own contractors. I'd also make sure you get a good local contractor who won't p!ss you (and therefore your tenant) around.

I disagree as the OP said

My wife was a bit fazzled by this, and was also a bit under pressure as we were at the time helping a friend move house, and agreed to let the tenant shop around for another plumber, but not to do anything without talking to her.

If the OP's wife did say this then the T did not follow through and hence there is no obligation for LL to reimburse (assuming the wife is also the LL - if she is not then it is irrelevant what the wife said as she could not authorise works).

However I agree that morally the OP should pay but if the facts above are correct then they do not, in my opinion, legally have to pay.

Halliron

Thanks all. There's consistancy in these answers, so it's clear what I should do. barnaby-bear, I'm sure though it would have been possible to answer without insulting my wife, but perhaps that's just the way you roll.

belisha-beacon

Oh, I meant to say before - when the plumber comes round to complete the repairs, it's worth telling them the situation regarding the gas company as well. It's worth asking them if they'd give you a call after they've been round to let you know if there's any evidence that the problem might have been caused by the way that the gas was switched off. If they say that there's good chance that that is what the issue was, then you can write to the gas company asking for compensation, and mention that you can get the report of a plumber to confirm the cause of the problem. It might help!

On the other hand, if the plumber would charge more than a nominal fee for that service then it's probably not worth it because the gas company are probably very unlikely to accept any responsibility at all.

clutton_2

these tenants clearly have no idea how difficult it can be to get work done quickly. This is the second time i have typed this in 24 hours - Landlords are NOT magicians.

i think that a repair by Sunday night after the LL was informed on Friday night (and bearing in mind that it is 5 times MORE difficult to get plumbers/gas engineer at the weekend than Mon-Fri) is fine. It is summer - if it was February i would be making different comments.

of course it is inconvenient to have no hot water - but hey - we all have to experience it once or twice in this life - things break down and go wrong.


If i were this landlord i would say that as the tenant did NOT comply with the agreement to notify the landlord before commissioning the work, therefore the call out was unauthorised and the LL could simply refuse to pay any of the invoice.

However, to show some goodwill the LL is willing to pay the original amount agreed and charge the rest to the tenant - taking it out of their deposit if necessary.

Also make it clear that no invoices will be paid unless agreed ahead of time by LL.

These sound like very demanding tenants - if you give in on this one - it will not be long before you are back with something else

Make sure you document everything thoroughly in case they go to Environmental Health.

i had a chat with EHO today and as long as landlords are taking action to repair equipment, they are not interested in annoying landlords with tenants moans. EHOs understand (like most sensible folks) that INSTANT repairs only get done for millionaires....


oh and join national landlord association (cheaper insurance and lots of perks including free legal helpling) and read https://www.landlordzone.co.uk

alunharford

When the goods you supplied failed, you contacted O’Reilly and promised it would be fixed. You messed your tenants around by subcontracting to incapable workmen, and they had to use their time to sort it out. If you then refuse to pay the bill, you can:

a) Expect to have some *seriously* !!!!ed off tenants.
b) Expect to lose the legal case.