Ground floor extension: I'm confused

waveyjane

I admit it - I'm defeated and need help. I have no prior experience with dealing with builders so apologies in advance for venting...

WHY is it that getting builders - even FMB registered ones - to give estimates against my specification (which I drew up with a designer, which has gone through planning office approval, which seems to me to be perfectly reasonable) is like PULLING TEETH? They all seem to believe that I'll be perfectly content with some random total figure pulled out of the air with NO breakdown! How am I supposed to choose between them or ask intelligent questions about what they will do for the price?

WHY is it that I ALWAYS have to ask THEM to provide references, and when I do they seem surprised? Every single goddamn recommendation out there starts with the words "always obtain references", yet the builders all seem to think it's the last thing you'd like to know! I've even had one outfit flatly refuse to give them on the grounds that their clients wouldn't want to be bothered by phone calls from strangers! Words ... fail me.

I paid a structural engineer to do some calculations for the plans because that's what's all the guidelines say you need and it's what the buildings regs require. Yet I had a seemingly highly-experienced builder raise his eyebrows and ask why I did it? What do you mean WHY?? Because I don't want my house to fall down is why!! But then, I'm just a punter - I just read books and do what they tell me to do.

In fact, pretty much every single "best practice" guideline I've read about and tried to apply to building an extension meets with resistance, is ignored or in some other way shrugged off. For example, it seems to me to be perfectly sensible to go for a full plans application before we start the build. I KNOW it's not strictly necessary, but I want to head off any nasty surprises in the buildings regs. Yet I've had builders LITERALLY LAUGH IN MY FACE when I tell them that's what I'm doing. Ho ho ho, you applied for full plans approval!? Worra waste of time!

But the thing that probably gets to me most is that these aren't cowboys as far as I can tell. I've checked their references (eventually!) and they're usually fine. Some of the references I've spoken to (all of whom like to talk about their experiences about having stuff built, by the way) warn me that the builder was a bit of a hassle, perhaps too messy for their liking, or prone to saying yes and then not doing stuff, etc. etc. but then they say that they pretty much got what they wanted in the end and they're probably OK. But are they even more naive than me I wonder? I certainly get the impression that they were fairly traumatised by the whole thing.

I dunno - all the signals I'm getting (and I'm describing an experience here that's so far lasted TWO YEARS) from all the builders, planning officers, architects, random punters on the phone, uncles, aunts, work colleagues I've spoken to for tips and support... all the signals are that I should put up, shut up, stick my head between my legs and just scream "Build my extension, I don't care how you do it, here's forty thousand pounds spend on whatever, I'm an idiot!" It certainly seems a very tempting thing to do right now - and maybe, eventually, everyone in my situation does.

Sorry about that. Just needed to get it off my chest. Any advice greatfully etc. etc. but frankly I've heard it all and it doesn't work so don't bother unless it's to buy a handgun.

Canucklehead

waveyjane wrote: »

I admit it - I'm defeated and need help. I have no prior experience with dealing with builders so apologies in advance for venting...

WHY is it that getting builders - even FMB registered ones - to give estimates against my specification (which I drew up with a designer, which has gone through planning office approval, which seems to me to be perfectly reasonable) is like PULLING TEETH? They all seem to believe that I'll be perfectly content with some random total figure pulled out of the air with NO breakdown! How am I supposed to choose between them or ask intelligent questions about what they will do for the price?

WHY is it that I ALWAYS have to ask THEM to provide references, and when I do they seem surprised? Every single goddamn recommendation out there starts with the words "always obtain references", yet the builders all seem to think it's the last thing you'd like to know! I've even had one outfit flatly refuse to give them on the grounds that their clients wouldn't want to be bothered by phone calls from strangers! Words ... fail me.

I paid a structural engineer to do some calculations for the plans because that's what's all the guidelines say you need and it's what the buildings regs require. Yet I had a seemingly highly-experienced builder raise his eyebrows and ask why I did it? What do you mean WHY?? Because I don't want my house to fall down is why!! But then, I'm just a punter - I just read books and do what they tell me to do.

In fact, pretty much every single "best practice" guideline I've read about and tried to apply to building an extension meets with resistance, is ignored or in some other way shrugged off. For example, it seems to me to be perfectly sensible to go for a full plans application before we start the build. I KNOW it's not strictly necessary, but I want to head off any nasty surprises in the buildings regs. Yet I've had builders LITERALLY LAUGH IN MY FACE when I tell them that's what I'm doing. Ho ho ho, you applied for full plans approval!? Worra waste of time!

But the thing that probably gets to me most is that these aren't cowboys as far as I can tell. I've checked their references (eventually!) and they're usually fine. Some of the references I've spoken to (all of whom like to talk about their experiences about having stuff built, by the way) warn me that the builder was a bit of a hassle, perhaps too messy for their liking, or prone to saying yes and then not doing stuff, etc. etc. but then they say that they pretty much got what they wanted in the end and they're probably OK. But are they even more naive than me I wonder? I certainly get the impression that they were fairly traumatised by the whole thing.

I dunno - all the signals I'm getting (and I'm describing an experience here that's so far lasted TWO YEARS) from all the builders, planning officers, architects, random punters on the phone, uncles, aunts, work colleagues I've spoken to for tips and support... all the signals are that I should put up, shut up, stick my head between my legs and just scream "Build my extension, I don't care how you do it, here's forty thousand pounds spend on whatever, I'm an idiot!" It certainly seems a very tempting thing to do right now - and maybe, eventually, everyone in my situation does.

Sorry about that. Just needed to get it off my chest. Any advice greatfully etc. etc. but frankly I've heard it all and it doesn't work so don't bother unless it's to buy a handgun.

Good morning: Keep looking until you find a builder who will meet your requirements. Request full specification, written quotations not estimates....are you prepared to pay a fee for this service?

Canucklehead

Kiran

Do you have your spec in writing? If so issue the builder with a copy of the spec and the drawings and ask them to quote from that. When you draw up your contract make sure your spec and drawings, including revision numbers, are recorded. You should ask for a breakdown in prices for staged payment purposes otherwise you can end up paying more upfront than you should, eg £20k for a hole in the gound whn that should infact cover everything to get you out of the ground. This can lead to the builder asking for more money to finish the job. A breakdown of the quotation is not an unusal thing to ask for and alsoit allows you to alter your specification if it happens that the cost of the build makes it prohibitive. EG you may want to get rid of the diamond encrusted taps/gold plated toilet seat (extreme examples I know!!;))

aliasojo

I don't suppose you live in the North of Scotland do you? :rolleyes:

Your experiences gel perfectly with mine. I've lived in the same house for over 20 years and in all that time the tradesmen (all trades) up here have never seemed to follow 'the guidelines'. Everything is much more laid back and I sometimes think this area is on another planet as it definitely does have 'it's own way'.

I've finally (after many years) got a plumber, an electrician and a builder I can call on and whilst none of them actually go down the specified quote route, I know I can trust them to not rip me off and will do a decent job. I'm hapy just to phone them and say 'I need x done' and they will turn up, do it and send me the bill which I'll pay immediately. I'm still searching for a good joiner though. :rolleyes:

Good luck. Home improvement can be a complete nightmare sometimes.

Doozergirl

The thing with builders is that they are not administrators. Their skills lie in using their hands, they will often baulk at the sight of a computer. They also know what they need for building regs so will go with building notice rather than full plans.

They also have a good gut instinct of how much things cost but perhaps can't break it down as far as you'd like. It doesn't mean that they aren't a good builder, it means they're not good at paperwork. To break it down for you, a builder may have to get priced quotes from his subbies, and they're just as impossible to get a breakdown from - and they will also build in their contigencies so the price goes up.

I suspect that you will actually end up paying more if someone breaks down everything for you on paper as I think you will need a larger firm to provide it?

All the tradespeople I know will quote for a job, knowing that they are leaving a contigency in there - if it costs more than they think, they're covered. I have enough trouble just trying to get invoices - it's like they've got a phobia of the things! We work on day rates with almost everyone, that way perhaps we don't know the final cost but on the first project we started doing this as opposed to priced work, each tradesperson came in a lot cheaper than their priced quote.

None of the guys that work for us advertise at all - it's all word of mouth stuff. We've been asked to provide references a few times but not very much at all considering how much work some of them do for us.

dander

I'm very interested in your post because I'm currently in the midst of almost exactly the same process - work is due to start on my single storey extension next week. Mine is being done on a building notice rather than full plans though - but mine is only a little 6 sqm shell tagging on the back of the house without any demolition so quite a simple build.

Because of my location I have to have permission even though it's a small rear extension and the finish has to be done to almost exactly match the existing house. I think this side of things has actually made things far simpler with the builders because when they've come round to quote I've given them copies of my drawings to take away and quote from and when we've been outside looking at the area and talking it through I've been able to point at things and say, "walls rendered like this..." "flat, clay roof tiles to match that..."

I haven't had breakdowns from the builders that have quoted other than materials/labour,
(TBH I hadn't thought to ask for that and now I see your post I wonder if I should have!) but then I think I have been so prescriptive about what I want I haven't left them much room to vary the spec - I've given them in writing the exact shape/size/finish required and specified it will be built to building regs which handles the more technical details that I can't see. When I got my quotes back they were all almost identical - which was actually quite comforting becuase it made me feel if they'd all come to the same conclusion then it must be the right price for the job. Although it didn't help me make a decision on who to go with!

I have to say though, I have had builders chuckling indulgently at me as I handed over the plans and commenting that they don't usually get given that kind of thing. Also, I've probably read all the same books as you and had also come to the conclusion that full plans building regs is what you should get for an extension, but where I've been cutting costs is by doing all the drawings myself and I don't know enough to do building regs - so since mine's a very simple build - just a very large porch really - I decided to go with a building notice. When I spoke to the builders about this, somewhat tentatively, they didn't even bat an eye - they do things far bigger than mine on building notices all the time. I did very much get the impression that building regs is not really their concern - if I want the approval, then fine we'll do it that way, but if I hadn't mentioned it they would have done the build anyway - I suspect there's an awful lot of building work happening all the time that is notifiable, but nobody bothers. Maybe their reaction to you says more about their previous clients than anything else!

I've had a pretty different experience with references though - they've been very keen to get me to visit sites they are currently working on to see the job they do and have usually mentioned the word references before I did! My best guess as to why they've been like that is that they've all seemed very keen to get the job and I didn't get them in until everything else was in place and I was ready to go.

So, sorry, no real advice just chit-chat and comparing experiences really.

Doozergirl

dander wrote: »

When I spoke to the builders about this, somewhat tentatively, they didn't even bat an eye - they do things far bigger than mine on building notices all the time. I did very much get the impression that building regs is not really their concern - if I want the approval, then fine we'll do it that way, but if I hadn't mentioned it they would have done the build anyway - I suspect there's an awful lot of building work happening all the time that is notifiable, but nobody bothers. Maybe their reaction to you says more about their previous clients than anything else!

I don't think that's entirely true. They know their jobs and what they need to do to meet building regs, for them they dig a hole but where most of us wouldn't have a clue and it just looks like a hole and panic about how the heck do they even get a building out of what used to be a patio, they know exactly how wide, how deep these things need to be to meet regs. You'd be surprised at how laid back the whole building regs process can be on building notice - builder builds, you call building regs for an inspection, they come out, look at it, tick some boxes and go away again - you rarely see them even on a massive build.

I would be very worried if a builder were avoiding regs because for a decent builder it makes no difference and no interference to their job at all. Don't mistake being laid back about it with not caring.

dander

Ah, yes, I probably just phrased it badly - I didn't mean to imply that they would avoid regs, just that it doesn't alter how they build - they build to that standard anyway and the only real difference it makes is that I get a certificate at the end and if people don't know or want a certificate, it makes no difference to the builder. Certainly no slur on builders intended!

DebtfreeDancin

Building Notice procedures were only ever intended to be used for minor works such as putting in a lintol, etc but unfortunately a procedural loophole means that larger work can be carried out on the Building Notice procedure; problem is using a BN results in the builder being charged with the design aspect and can lead to costly retrospective rectification when it is found the builder doesn't know enough about the surrounding legisaltion such as Approved Documents or British Standards or just hides behind the phrase '..I worked in the building game for years and thats how i've always done it....'; on this I say '...surgeons operated without aneasthetic in the past, would they now?...' Things move on and as a result, you should always build with an approved plan.

Building Control should not and in most cases will not advocate a particular product or technique for construction as they do not want design liability as this is the role of the architect. The architect specifies and BC check against the standard, simple as that.

To avoid confusion, the best way to build an extension is to submit Full Plans which are then checked by Building Control and then work proceeds to the Approved plan. Foundations and drains are always a grey area as conditions and issues can vary greatly but once out the ground, the builder can then price and build to the plan without any need for additional costs. Good builders will always stipulate that the client has BC approved drawings before work starts.

slummymummyof3

Have you thought about getting jobs priced up individually rather than as a job lot? Get a groundworker to give a price for the groundworks and a brickie to price the brick/blockwork, roofer for the roof etc. Could work out cheaper. Ask if they are willing to work for cash, can you get yourself an account with someone like the build centre/jewsons so that you are buying in the materials and can negotiate the prices yourself. I bought all my roof tiles from ebay for 1p! Insulation I bought from seconds and co over the internet. There is the potential to save a lot of money if you are prepared to put in some legwork yourself. Use places like screwfix to buy in your wall ties, mortar placsitiser etc and the savings all add up. Interestingly, I bought my lintels from Wickes as they were significantly cheaper than I could get on my trade accounts. Once you have your building regs, you know what sizes etc you will need. My brickie told me how many bricks/blocks/bags of cement/dumpy bags of sand etc I would need.

00ec25

I think one of the most important things which you often do not see in my experience of friends/colleagues extensions and relations with their builders is the use of formal contracts. The drawing and quote is one thing, but unless, as someone said above, they are tied into the contract they are just background decoration.

my boss had a 40k extension built and the builder said it was only the second time in his entire life he had been asked to sign a written contract, yet the industry standard stuff is from the JCT