My FEAR realised.... next steps?

happywarmgun

My situation -

- Been on a secondment working overseas for two years.
- Whilst on secondment my original job was re-organised out of existence.
- Secondment now finishing.
- Therefore redundant.

I have no problem with any of the above. I have been through the formal consultation process.

The first consultation meeting focussed on other possible opportunities. To be fair to my employeer they did try and find me alternative roles - I seriously investigated two - both very different to work I have previously done - one I ruled out myself, one I failed the interview so they ruled me out.

The second consultation meeting therefore went to 'next steps' and nobody had identified any work for my notice period, and so we agreed a leaving date and a 'payment in lieu of notice' on top of my redundancy. My notice period is 6 months so this was a massive parachute and really softened the blow. I asked for this agreement to be documented - as I expressed an explicit fear that with them having put this on the table, and me being happy enough, someone would still pop up at the last minute with some work for my notice period. I was advised they would not document it for another week not because of that possibility (I was told there was no possibility that would happen) - but in order to allow me to still apply for other permanent roles if they came up in the next week. I took that at face value.

The third consultation meeting (tommorow) was supposed to rubber stamp the above. I then get a phone call this morning saying they have changed their minds and DO now want me to work my full six month notice period. They want me to split my time between two jobs - neither of which bare any relation to either my original role or my current secondment.


SO - my questions -

- Does the content of the second consultation meeting (which was minuted) create any legal obligation if the formal paperwork was not signed. (I suspect not but would love it if someone had a valid contrary view!)
- How different a job can you be forced to work for your notice period?

Any advice about how to proceed appreciated. I'm mentally all over the place on this at the moment. It took me a while to make peace with the thought of being redundant - having got there I am now desperate to go, and then at the last minute - this....

happywarmgun

Any advice still appreciated. I had the consultation meeting yesterday - they are sticking to their guns on my notice period - the work they wish to do is a pretty random hotch potch of projects none of which bare any resemblance to either my original job or the work I did on my secondment.

RobertoMoir

but is it work you reasonably could do ?

They would certainly have to give you time off for interviews and suchlike but I do believe they can ask you to work your notice period,

happywarmgun

Ho de hum. I'm in for a pretty torrid six months th'en. Think I'll see a solicitor. I'm worried given present economic circumstances, they will try to make my life so miserable over six months I have to quit and forfeit the redundancy. I guess if that is the case we could look at constructive dismissal but would be hard to prove. Guess I grin and bear it.

getmore4less

I would look at this from the other angle.

What do you want?

Would you stay if there was another "proper" job?

What is your notice?

What about the redundancy how much is this?
How many years are we talking and is it stat or enhanced?

If these jobs are different you could try to force them to consider these as suitable alternatives and as such you are not redundant, this will keep the clock ticking and still give you 6 months if they try to make you redundant later, might notch up another years service.

If you can make a case to fight for the PILON the risk is you fail.


Is the redundancy on its own worth staying for if not and you have shorter notice think about working looking and jumping.

A lot can change in a company in 6 months even if they continue down this route jobs come up then you can go for them or even make case that they have by default given you work so not made you redundant.

I would start to document everything especialy unreasonale behavour and consider grievences if they start to make life hell.

I thought base employment law on notice becoming contactual and the final step only changable by mutual agreement applied.

Turns out that if on notice due to redundancy they can find a suitable job right up to the last day and withdraw the notice.

They probably should have started the process while you were still on secondment since the old job had gone, not sure if this will be of any use in a case.

I think this may boil down to can you be expected to do anything during notice once your original job is redundant.

I think this is one for an employment expert.

happywarmgun

"What do you want?"

At this point I want to leave and set up my own business and do what I do as a contractor. Obviously starting up in a recession is high risk so I would only do this with the redundancy cushion in the bank.

"Would you stay if there was another "proper" job?"

Had I have been asked that 3 months ago the answer would be yes - now the answer is no - I want to leave and do other things.

"What is your notice?"

Six months for the company to me, three months for me to the company.

"What about the redundancy how much is this?
How many years are we talking and is it stat or enhanced?"

Seven years, and it's enhanced (3 weeks per year). I'm well paid so this works out at just over the full thirty grand tax free. Not an amount you would let go easily!

The daft thing about this whole thing is that if I take a big step back when I walked into my first consutlation meeting I was not expecting to leave. I knew I was on six months notice so expected them to find me something to do and in my mind believed I would easily find another internal job within that six month period. At that point I wanted to stay.

The first consultation meeting was an huge shock when they started setting the expectation that they would pay me off in lieu and I would be leaving the company. It felt like they actually wanted me out - nobody wanted my salary on their cost centre in the present climate when they all have to deliver cuts.

I went home numb. However, I quickly went through the grief cycle, re-evaluated what I want to do with my life/career, made plans for several months off with my family (including actually booking a long holiday after the second consultation meeting when we agreed my end date). I had got to a place in my head where I had gone full circle - not only was I now accepting that I was leaving - I now wanted to and have been frankly counting the days.

Literally the day before we were due to cross the i's and dot the t's they change their minds. It feels like a punch in the guts. We have ended up exactly where I expected when we started - but somehow they have contrived to put me on a mental roller coaster that - without wishing to sound dramatic - has been mentally damaging to me. All so unnecessary and badly handled.

Had this outcome been set as the expectation from day one they would have a motivated, experienced, proffesional minded, senior manager more than happy to do ad hoc projects until I find my next real role and proud of the company I work for.

Somehow HR have managed to turn me into an emotionally pretty fragile, frustrated, cynical senior manager who is desperate not to be there and dreading doing work in which I have no interest or experience and with next to no good will remaining towards the company.

It could hardly have been handled worse.

"Turns out that if on notice due to redundancy they can find a suitable job right up to the last day and withdraw the notice"

This terrifies me. Is that right? If they decide over the next six months they need a full time role which is in their view similar to my original job they could unilaterally withdraw notice? Doh.

RobertoMoir

The thing is, you're taking this personally - which is understandable because it is your life - while the business almost certainly is just seeing this as a business decision (unless you have specific information that says otherwise).

It sounds to me like they're hoping that a "proper" role will come up during the 6 months or else they would let you go now, as you hint at there is no point keeping disgruntled people around.

Is now really the time to be looking to leave and find another job or start a new business?

Spirit_2

"Turns out that if on notice due to redundancy they can find a suitable job right up to the last day and withdraw the notice"

This terrifies me. Is that right? If they decide over the next six months they need a full time role which is in their view similar to my original job they could unilaterally withdraw notice? Doh.[/QUOTE]

To answer your question -it is right. I have been in the position of telling staff who thought they were going, that they are not, instead we a have a suitable job available due to other staff leaving or change. "Oddly enough" not everyone who get to keep their job after a roller coaster of emotional upheaval is delighted.

You are describing how you have emotionally seperated from the company and prepared yourself to move on in a given set of circumstances - redundancy payout and PILON.

I suspect your HR people did what they have always done -a speedy easy (expensive) exit - only the change in economic climate requires them to be more accountable for minimising the payback period for your redundancy even if it means that they have a disgruntled employee on the books. It may also be that as you have the ability to work as a contractor in your chosen field, by keeping you out of it for 6 months it loosens your connections to clients.

Good luck

Spirit

happywarmgun

RobertoMoir wrote: »

Is now really the time to be looking to leave and find another job or start a new business?

It is one of those things - if not now - when? The redundancy cushion would have made it very, very low risk and without that kick up the backside I would have always drifted in 'safe' employment - well paid, but personally neither really satisfied nor fulfilled by my career.

It's only when these 'opportunities' present themselves that you really take stock of what is important:

- I spent the last two years living in hotels overseas all week missing the first two years of my daughters life and making childcare arrangements a nightmare.
- I have lived, breathed and slept the job to the detriment of my wife, wider family and friends.
- I have had a colleague on the same project have a heart attack and die in the hotel. That really underlined the silliness of the two points above and led me to really question what I want to do. This coincided with the whole redundancy scenario thing.
- My wife has a very good stable job - we live well within our means and could easily cope on one salary if needed (only cutbacks would be gadgets and holidays).
- I actually hate the 'career' stuff that comes with working for a FTSE 100 company (appraisals, politics, reorganisations etc)
- My skill set is pretty recession proof (arguable demand increases in difficult times) and the contractor market is strong so if/when I needed/wanted to work I am sure that I could, I would even take less money to do so locally more on my terms for work life balance.

You see -for all the above reasons I had talked myself into leaving and was very comfortable with setting up on my own!!!! But the redundancy money is a huge enabler to it....

Ho hum.

zzzLazyDaisy

If you have already been given formal notice of termination, and during that time you find alternative work, you can ask your employer to allow you to leave without it affecting your redundancy pay. If your employer refuses you can serve a counter notice, saying when you wish to leave and giving as much notice as possible. Some employers will agree let you go at that point, in which case you do not forfeit your redundancy pay. However if the employer does not wish to accommodate you, all they have to do is serve a counter notice on you, and then you are back to square one.

Sorry, this sounds like a load of twaddle, and won't help you one jot if your employer is refusing to co-operate, but that's the legal process.

I haven't read the full posts, so apologies if this has been covered, but if you are in a union, they can often step in an negotiate on your behalf.

Also, it might be worth contacting ACAS (number in the book) as they will sometimes agree to mediate between the employer and the employee in these circumstances.

Good luck.

getmore4less

That Enhanced redundancy is worth waiting for so no point in risking that

All the feeling you describe are fairly normal, we went through this 3 years ago and after setting everyone up ready to leave they just withdrew the redundancy and expected everything to go back to normal.

happywarmgun wrote: »

"Turns out that if on notice due to redundancy they can find a suitable job right up to the last day and withdraw the notice"

This terrifies me. Is that right? If they decide over the next six months they need a full time role which is in their view similar to my original job they could unilaterally withdraw notice? Doh.

Happening again now, at least one has been found work with 1 week of notice to go after been on notice 7 weeks and they had made plans but not got a job lined up* there are a few of us that are now ready to leave and hoping they don't find us work.

I would still work for the company but only on my terms and after a payout.


* Having a job offer looks like it might be one reason that allows you to refuse any new offer while on notice, so might be worth checking this out,

If true then set up your company and offer/accept yourself a job ASAP. that will at least limit it to 6 month and still get the payout, with the option to try and get them to reduce it to 3months(your notice)