Financial Assessment for a Care Home

weanie

Despite valiant efforts from all the family, it looks as if we will have to accept the inevitable and Mum will go into a care home in the near future.

I had a preliminary discussion with a social worker and one of the documents she was keen to leave with me and for me to sign was one which indicated that when/if Mum's savings/equity from sale of house ran out, I wold be prepared to pay a top up fee for Mum's care.

Who knows what circumstances we may find ourselves in the future and the social worker was uanble to tell me whether or not failure to 'top up' would mean Mum being evicted to a different establishment or even what the amount would be for top up [given that I showed her the Care Home rates, I thought this would be an easy deduction].

I wonder how binding such a document would be and also doubt her chirpy bit about 'No-one else has a problem with this!'. Who would sign document to indicate a willingness in SOME time int he future to pay SOME amount of money for SOME time.

We await more visits and information from others.

My instinct is to refuse to sign such a document - what do others think?

Errata

It is unreasonable to ask someone to sign a financial undertaking to cover unknown costs at some unknown point in the future.
Personally - I would make the above point, also point out that I might be dead when the day arrives so what happens then, and point out that my relly might be dead long before that day arrives anyway.
i would want to know, in writing, precisly what will happen if I refuse to sign. both now and when a top up might be needed.

margaretclare

weanie wrote: »

Despite valiant efforts from all the family, it looks as if we will have to accept the inevitable and Mum will go into a care home in the near future.

I had a preliminary discussion with a social worker and one of the documents she was keen to leave with me and for me to sign was one which indicated that when/if Mum's savings/equity from sale of house ran out, I would be prepared to pay a top up fee for Mum's care.

Who knows what circumstances we may find ourselves in the future and the social worker was unable to tell me whether or not failure to 'top up' would mean Mum being evicted to a different establishment or even what the amount would be for top up [given that I showed her the Care Home rates, I thought this would be an easy deduction].

I wonder how binding such a document would be and also doubt her chirpy bit about 'No-one else has a problem with this!'. Who would sign document to indicate a willingness in SOME time in the future to pay SOME amount of money for SOME time.

We await more visits and information from others.

My instinct is to refuse to sign such a document - what do others think?

Errr, no. Bit like signing a blank cheque! It's too open-ended. You hand them an option which is legally binding. You have no rights whatsoever - you'd have just signed them all away.

'No one else has a problem...' well, madam social worker, maybe they do but don't tell you about it. Or maybe you're able to pull the wool over their eyes, bamboozle them into trusting you.

I am just a bit suspicious by nature. My DH is even more so! No one would ever, ever get him to sign any such document.

Errata

The Age Concern factsheet has info on top up payments http://www.ageconcern.org.uk/AgeConcern/Documents/IS25Choice_of_Accommodation.pdf

If my reading of it is correct, the LA has to assure itself the third party will be able to make the top up payments for as long as they're needed. This is an impossibility. In any case, it also appears the rules have changed.

monkeyspanner

First of all don't take any notice of the "you are the only one with a problem about signing this" that is the standard approach of a social worker when someone asks a question they are either unwilling or unable to answer, and you are being "difficult".

Your concern is perfectly valid and how could you be expected to know if you will be able to pay top-up fees at some unknown time in the future.

Does this mean that the suggested care home fees are in excess of the rates the council would be paying for their standard payment?

Did the social services pick the home or did you?

The rates the social services pay compared to a self-funder in the same care home for the same care can be substantially different(lower). This means that many care homes which would normally take social services clients at a lower rate will continue to charge the same higher self funder rate even after the client has run out of money and the social services have to support funding. This means that not only will your mum be subsidisng the supported clients when she is self-funding but you will be expected to continue this subsidy in the form of a top-up. This of course suits the social services because self-funders are allowing the standard council rates to be kept low.

All councils publish their standard rates and these are banded according to the amount of care needed, normally 4 bands I think. It may be that if your mum is self-funding then she will not have been assessed for her care level and therefore the social worker would not have been able to give you a figure. However you should be able to ask the care home what level your mum should be on and check the difference between the standard rate of the appropriate level of care and the self-funding fees. To give you an idea in my MIL's case social services would have supported fees up to £314/week for level 3 care and the self-funding fees for the same level of care were £415 per week so the top-up would have been £101/week.

It is my understanding that there had to be at least one care home in an area that would accept the councils standard rates and if this was not the case or that one could not be found when a clients funds reduce to the minimum level then the council had to shoulder the extra cost. So yes your mum could be moved if no top-up is available but it may not happen if the council cannot find a care home which will accept the standard fees. So if this situation ever arises you should get the council to demonstrate there is a care home place available at the standard rate as if they can't show this thay have to bear the additional cost.

Please also bear in mind that if the majority of your mum's assets are in the house and her funds other than this are under the minimum savings limit then you can apply for a 12 week disregard period from the council to allow time to market the house. During this period the value of the house is disregarded and your mum's finances would be assessed to see if council support can be paid. You should apply for this prior to your mum going into the care home or the council can refuse to grant the assistance. When we did this the social worker(sorry "care manager") got very upset as apparently we were "causing a lot of extra work for her". I thought we were just requesting what the legislation allowed my MIL to have, and incidentally what she had failed to tell us was available.

weanie

There are [not untypical] a lot of very practical, logistical and financial implications to changs to Mum's care. That is even before the consideration of any emotional issues and/or guilt.

She remains with me/us at the moment and her moods and mental incapacity require the whole house and certainly the whole of my life to revolve around her. I think I have to bow to the views of others -
1 Psychiatrist thinks that if she can settle in a basic care home, then she MAY manage to stay there comfortably although she has moderate to severe vascualr dementia. I thought at first this was a bit odd but having now visited the alternative EMD type places, I am not so sure. The only acceptable one needed a guarantee o 3 years funding at way over £2000 a month and had no vacancies.
2 Family - they all think she will/is making me ill and then would have a trauma being 'removed' to care if I ended up in hospital.

The place where Mum has had respite before is up for her going there and even though they are not 'trained in mental health', they are kind, approachable, sympathetic and supportive.

I have a real issue with the way the social services operate their system. We have now had 3 social workers because each time I say Mum's needs have changed, they have to put my request for a re-assessment in an in-tray and a new one eventually contacts for a re-assessment. If i could have had a 'named' one it would have been so much better. I have had to explain this arrangement to countless care home managers, doctors, the psychiatrist .... They all assume she has a social worker. If Mum goes into care, she will have one named one.

Our latest social worker can probably be described as 'very nice'. She wondered if some extra input - say a day care placement or something could help. She kept explaining that she did not know anything about the financial assessment [which will come later and from others] but I would have expected her to know at least as much as me. Why she has give me a 'Supplementary Agreement' to sign relating to 3rd party funding seems a bit daft given her own lack of grasp is daft. She did not understand the difference between 'deferred payments and 12 week disregard' - so most of what she said on the subject was pointless and I can only asume that her 'panel' session [which is to see about a 12 week disregard at my request], will be more informed.

As for our choice of home --- I am very concerned about where Mum will end up as her dementia takes further hold and they may be unable to accept her there any longer. I am also concerned about what will happen after the 12 week disregard an when her released equity is used up. I am really grateful to the matron ther though because of all people involved in Mum's future, she has shown the better understanding of the 'whole picture'

If Mum were to go to the one county home available, it would HAVE to be as a dementia patient [ I am told from the there matron becasue of the diagnosis of moderate to severe V. dementia] but if we chose a non county funded home, we could place Mum away from all these other distressing and distressed individuals in the 'residential' section.

There is no way any of us will sign this document because despite all the stresses of our situation, we try to remain a little alert. I would like to encourage any of these other relatives [who our social worker says 'have no problem over this'] to take care to see the problems which could evolve.

If the original poster may be going through a financial assessment, then this should be a document to consider and to avoid.

Thanks to all - as ususal or the advice and encouragement. I have only found out about the 12 week disregard and otehr things by early reference to your posts.

littlemissbossy

My MIL/FIL went into their care home this weekend, at first they were both very pleased but when we visited yesterday their mood had changed. Nothing was right, they had too many shredded wheat, there was no bone in their chop!! and their brews weren't right. Don't know where to go now - no plan B. The staff are so understanding and supportive, they say this is often the reaction when the families visit and not to worry just yet.

Weanie

Our dealings with our social worker haven't been very reassuring either, she seems to know less than me about the financial ins and outs and I've only been swotting up for a week. We haven't been asked to sign anything yet, our care home is £17 per week each over the limit, I've asked the question "is this a problem" and had no feedback. Age concern have mentioned that there is an entitlement to a months free respite care per year and we should look into this. I mentioned this to our social worker and she said she would have to go to the financial committee (that sounds like delays and red tape) and enquire for us.

I feel after all the years of our parents (and ourselves) paying into the "pot" it is unfair to ask us to commit to the unknown.

weanie

My Mum has enjoyed respite care o 28 days per financial year - but we only just stumbled upon htis whe we were in a spot of crisis last Sept/Oct and I found that I was applying for a 'Carer's assessment' and the amount of respite a carer can enjoy is 28 days of vouchers - o which we have to top up about £10 daily. during this time, no claims are made on Mum's pension or other funds [other than this charge]. this si how we discovered the care home and gained some assistance and advice from them.
The social worker has to write up some sort of report and go off to his/her superiors and then a group [a panel] meet every week and if your issue gets pu tin the agenda for panel, then vouchers or any other such care is 'assessed' and you do or do not get what you ask for. This si what we will have to wait or in our situation - I think you might be able to get tehse vouchers as a sort of emergency if you push it and then your parents could have 28 days trial at the home.
I don't want to 'knock' social workers but I do think that in the situation where someone's health is declining so rapidly [and also their care needs] then there should be a limit on the amount of soial workers you have to trot out the same old story to.
Good luck with your parents. I think it is a bit like starting a child at nursery school - they are usually quite happy there but sometimes make a bit of a fuss about being left.

monkeyspanner

Weanie could I suggest you contact the finance department in your council that deal with social services. We didn't get a straight oe informative answer about assessments until we spoke to a finance officer who in a few minutes gave more information than the social services had managed in weeks.

weanie

Thanks for the advice Monkeyspanner. It is psychiatrist this week, hear back from the 'panel' next week [hopefully] an then they say, the finance dept will contact me but here is no harm n being proactive is there?
Thanks to all.