disciplinary advice please (social networking - misconduct), sackable?

pelirocco

sjaypink wrote: »

it appears you have a personal axe to grind here, and, as much as im sorry about that, i have to point out its not really helping....

i think its important i spell out very clearly the difference between bullying, and a shared (albeit immature) sense of humour/ camaraderie

my friend agrees mr x could be regarded as not being part of this, as he is not a member of the site involved, however, there is no need to suggest all colleagues are being bullied by my friend (who theyre also friends with)

I Think you will find the poster was stating the law , and i dont think you do understand the difference between bullying and a shared sense of humour . The fact that your friend is subject to a disciplinary is proof of that . I am assuming from your posts that you dont work with the people involved , therefore you views are biased because it involves your friend .

pinkshoes

The fact that your friend is in a senior position will go against him, as he really should have known better than to do something so stupid.

Yes, the group was all in good humour, but because Mr X was not a member of Facebook, then setting up the group can only be seen as bullying of a colleague.

Me and my colleagues enjoy p*ss taking and banter, but there is no way in a million years I would ever start up a Facebook group about one of them, and I'd be really p*ssed off if they did the same to me - and I'm a very thick skinned & open minded person!!

When the FB group was started, was Mr X notified of it and shown it (given he didn't have access himself)? If they specifically told him what they'd done, and he didn't mind it and agreed to it, then this is the only defense they have.

If Mr X was not aware or notified of the FB group when it was started, then it will be seen as bullying, and your friend will probably lose his job.

reheat

sjaypink wrote: »

i think its important i spell out very clearly the difference between bullying, and a shared (albeit immature) sense of humour/ camaraderie

It's also important to understand the difference. I am all for good humour and banter ... life would be terrible without it. But it takes a good helping of integrity to distingush between healthy banter and bullying, and it's easy to get it wrong ... I'm no saint, I've got it wrong myself in the past.

The key is to recognise not how you feel about it, but being able to empathise with how the other person will feel about it. If you can't empathise with them well enough to be sure, or if you can and see it would cause them hurt/offence ... then lay off them. Don't judge based on whether you would be hurt/offended (or whether it's just too good a laugh to pass on!) ... base it on how they will feel.

If someone deliberately did something that hurt/offended you, then you would naturally feel aggrieved, no matter if they thought it was all a big joke ... which itself would be all the more hurtful.

I know there are some situations when people can be be very sensitive about truly well-intentioned behaviour, but I don't think that was the case here ... I don't think it was done with any empathy for Mr X, nor with genuine good intentions.

I think your friend should stop looking for excuses and instead look for the insights to treat people better in future. They might then look back on this as a beneficial milestone in their life.

sjaypink

pelirocco wrote: »

I Think you will find the poster was stating the law , and i dont think you do understand the difference between bullying and a shared sense of humour . The fact that your friend is subject to a disciplinary is proof of that . I am assuming from your posts that you dont work with the people involved , therefore you views are biased because it involves your friend .

the poster has been very helpful at times, but she has also at several points made presumptions about the situation, which to me suggested there was a motivation behind some comments. i may be wrong, but its not really anything to do with the question anyway...

i dont work at the company, but am friends with a couple of employess, and am friendly/ know of (iyswim) others, including mr x and his father.

i have tried to be as unbiased as possible whilst explaining the situation, in order to get the best advice for my friend- there is no point me trying to make things 'look/ sound better' on an anonymous forum :rolleyes:- because then i may well be passing on incorrect advice and hope as a consequence

sjaypink

reheat wrote: »

sjaypink wrote: »

i think its important i spell out very clearly the difference between bullying, and a shared (albeit immature) sense of humour/ camaraderie

It's also important to understand the difference. I am all for good humour and banter ... life would be terrible without it. But it takes a good helping of integrity to distingush between healthy banter and bullying, and it's easy to get it wrong ... .

can i just make clear the post in which you quote me here was in reply to this:

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

But I doubt that pointing out that he has a track record of bullying other colleagues will help him much at his disciplinary.

i was trying to point out that there is no suggestion at all that there is further bullying between employees they are all as bad as eachother, and are friends outside of work too. i was not referring to the treatment of mr x, which i understand could be treated as bullying

reheat wrote: »

I think your friend should stop looking for excuses and instead look for the insights to treat people better in future. They might then look back on this as a beneficial milestone in their life.

it is not excuses at all, i have come here to ask for advice as to whether this is a sackable offence, i dont want to see a friend lose their career, even their home maybe, without trying to check it out.

i know he has been stupid, he knows he has been stupid. he is ashamed and tbh i think will resign anyway even if he does manage to keep his job.

i think what he is frustrated/ ashamed of the most is that this case is being brought with the huge focus, it appears, on the disibility, which he feels is unfair. .....not because he is looking for excuses, but because he genuinely never treated mr x any differently because of his disibility, in fact this has actually all came about because everyone there is treated the same- but yes, i know that 'but everyone takes the p!ss out of everyone' is no defence (before anyone jumps on me )

zzzLazyDaisy

sjaypink wrote: »

the poster has been very helpful at times, but she has also at several points made presumptions about the situation, which to me suggested there was a motivation behind some comments. i may be wrong, but its not really anything to do with the question anyway...

Just to be clear. I have no personal axe to grind, as was suggested above. My only interest in this thread is as a retired employment lawyer who formerly specialised in discrimination law in the work place.

Some posts back, I pointed out that to treat a disabled colleague differently from his colleagues, and to make fun of that colleague for a reason relating to his disability is likely to be viewed as unlawful discrimination under the Disability Discrimination Act (DDA).

You replied initially that he was not being treated differently because your friend had done the same thing to other colleagues. But in later post you clarified this by saying that the other colleagues were all members of the sites that your friend has started about them and viewed the comments as shared cameraderie, whereas Mr X was not a member of the site that your friend has set up about him, and therefore all the comments were made without his involvement and without his knowledge.

To me, as an outsider, on the face of it, looks like different treatment of a disabled colleague, and possibly also unlawful harassment under the DDA. It should certainly be investigated as such (which is what the employer is doing) and if an allegation discrimination by a senior employee against a more junior disabled employee is believed to be well-founded, should be treated with appropriate seriousness.

What people who go in for this sort of 'banter' often don't seem to understand is that it is against the law, and that not only could it result in a hefty financial penalty against the employer - the individual who perpetrated the discrimination can also be ordered personally to pay compensation to his 'victim'.

Only this week, there was a case reported of a disabled employee who was ridiculed in front of his colleagues by his supervisor, made to do harder manual work than his colleagues, and even made to wear a different coloured overall to make him stand out from his colleagues. That employee has just been awarded the highest ever sum in compensation for disability discrimination amounting to £78,000.

I am not suggesting that what your friend did is as blatant and serious as that case, but at a basic level, what your friend did - treating Mr X differently from his colleagues and making fun of him to his colleagues, is the same thing. Unless there is other information to be taken into account that we don't know about, his behaviour would almost certainly be viewed by an employment tribunal as unlawful discrimination - and that is something that the employer has to take seriously.

Pssst

My view-Inclusion and diversity is big time stuff at the moment,especially with major employers such as FT quoted companies.
Many companies will already have very clear policies on such matters and other disciplinary issues such as bullying/harrassment/use of computers during work time etc etc.

My first thought is-why would someone want to set up an "appreciation" group for this person?

It is clear that he wasnt really "appreciated". He seems to be the target of a certain amount of ridicule which may be perceived as psychological bullying.

Those involved may well have thought it a frivolous matter but to the recipient,it isnt perhaps so nice.

I appreciate that we can all have a bit of a joke but if the butt of those joke is not included,then it isnt acceptable.

The best thing to do at this disciplinary investigation is to hold your hands up,admit that the behaviour,with hindsight,was inappropriate and that you wish to re-examine the behaviours,seek advice/guidance and apologise to the person involved.

After that,your at their mercy.

Do NOT try to defend or the departure will be certain rather than possible!

You may have played into their hands at a time when they'd like to offload staff.

sjaypink

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

You replied initially that he was not being treated differently because your friend had done the same thing to other colleagues. But in later post you clarified this by saying that the other colleagues were all members of the sites that your friend has started about them and viewed the comments as shared cameraderie, whereas Mr X was not a member of the site that your friend has set up about him, and therefore all the comments were made without his involvement and without his knowledge.

sorry i got you wrong

there is no further information to take into account really, other than 'everyone does it', which i do realise is no defence, i have told him it looks very likely he will not be going back, which he accepts and understands.

to make clear again , i did not mean just my friend made up groups about others, i meant it is the kind of thing they all do- i dont know whether all the 'victims' of these so called jokes are all members of facebook/ myspace/ bebo or not.

also, i did not mean it was just posts on the internet that they get up to. some of the stories i hear..... 'i want c0ck' written on male employees cars in ketchup, posters put up in staffroom with pictures of one guys girlfriends boobs (they had secretly got the picture off his phone) and tag line 'ive [EMAIL="sh@gged"]sh@gged[/EMAIL] your missus!' etc etc

i guess if someone complained it could be taken as disibility discrimination/ rascism/ age-ism/ fattism etc etc, depending on who was the butt of the joke that day...

....a hr managers dream ....or nightmare... depending on how you look at it!

anyway, i guess it is pretty much case closed, so thank to all those who took the time to reply.

one more question, on applying for a new job- would the prospective employer be told (in the reference) just gross misconduct? or about the content of the investigation etc?

and dont know if anyone knows whether you can claim jsa after being sacked? ... im pretty sure you cant after resigning?

zzzLazyDaisy

It sounds like the company may not have an anti discrimination/harassment policy in force and/or is not taking steps to ensure that all employees are aware that this sort of behaviour is not acceptable. This is something that your friend should raise at the disciplinary hearing.

EDIT - NOT as a way of excusing or minimising his behaviour, he should be clear that he regrets what he did - but to ask for the lack of training/guidance by the employer to be taken into account when deciding what penalty to give (warning/dismissal)

Particularly since the internet policy was introduced after these events took place (why on earth didn't he go back and delete these sites at the time?)

Also, if your friend is able to persuade the employer that other employees do indeed do this sort of thing (will other colleagues speak up for him? Is it something that is common knowledge within the company) he MAY have an argument for being treated more leniently, and pleading for a warning rather than dismissal.

Horace

sjaypink wrote: »

it appears you have a personal axe to grind here, and, as much as im sorry about that, i have to point out its not really helping....

i think its important i spell out very clearly the difference between bullying, and a shared (albeit immature) sense of humour/ camaraderie

my friend agrees mr x could be regarded as not being part of this, as he is not a member of the site involved, however, there is no need to suggest all colleagues are being bullied by my friend (who theyre also friends with)

sjaypink - LazyDaisy doesnt have a personal axe to grind she is an employment lawyer.

I think that your friend should be given the sack as they set up a social networking site to poke fun at mr x without his knowledge. Therefore by so doing your friend has singled out mr x for special attention and this is deemed as bullying and harassment. Mr x is within his rights to take out a bullying and harrassment claim as well as a disability discrimination claim against the company and your friend - let's hope that he does and gets awarded a large amount of damages.

Your friend is in a position of power over mr x and possibly other work colleagues and therefore any social networking site set up about any of them could be construed as bullying and harassment. Put yourself in the position of mr x who has a disaiblity - how would you like it if a social networking appreciation group was set up about you without your knowledge?

As far as I can see from what you have told us your friend stands to lose his job for gross misconduct (fair play to the company I say). Consider the laws that have been broken here:

Prevention from Harassment Act
Disability Discrimination Act
Data Protection Act
Human Rights Act

If your friend had been an employee of mine he would get sacked on the spot and I would help mr x bring a case against your friend.