Told Ticket Cancelled But Still Fined

patfrompenge

Dear All

I have received a letter from The Independent Penalty Fares Appeal Service dated 17.09.2009.

It reads:

Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 19-Aug-2009.

The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where a facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising all rail users of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.

Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice.

In accordance with the NRCOC, if a passenger does not show their valid season ticket and any photo card required with a season ticket when asked by staff or agents of a train company, they will be treated as having joined the train without a ticket and may be liable to a penalty fare. Where the season ticket and / or photo card has been forgotten, the passenger should buy another ticket before starting their journey and then apply for a refund from the ticket office where the additional ticket was purchased.

Train companies accept that passengers occasionally forget to carry their documentation and, upon production of a valid season ticket and accompanying photo card (where applicable), may revoke any penalty fare issued. However, they will only do this on two occasions in any twelve-month period, so it is always advisable to check that the season ticket and photo card are available for inspection before travel commences. This will be counted as the second of two occasions within a twelve -month period on which it is permissible to produce the documentation for inspection after the date of travel.

With that in mind, I am pleased to inform you that your appeal has been successful and the balance of the notice has been withdrawn. A statement of account has been provided by the Debt Recovery Agents (RPSS) in relation to this penalty notice. If there are any queries regarding the statement please contact RPSS direct rather than IPFAS. You may write to RPSS, PO Box **, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 1EG. Alternatively, they may be contacted by telephone on 0871 559 ****, Monday - Friday, between 9am and 5pm.

Yours sincerely
IPFAS

Below the signature the letter has a Statement Of Account showing a £40.00 Administrative Fee is outstanding.

I phoned the RPSS today and a lady confirmed that I had to pay the £40.00 admin fee and any issues I had with the decision should be referred to the IPFAS.

So in summary:

• One morning I cannot produce my ticket
• I get a PFN
• 5 minutes later I return and produce the ticket
• My return would have been caught on CCTV
• I was advised by the ticket inspector that he has cancelled the ticket.
• I do not retain the PFN
• I subsequently receive a letter saying that because I did not appeal or pay the £20 PFN I have to pay £40 PFN
• I appeal the decision
• The appeal is accepted and the balance of the Notice is withdrawn

BUT CATCH 22!!!!!!!

• I now have to pay a £40 Admin fee to the Debt collection agency.

The RPSS say that details of the admin fee are on the PFN - which I would have retained and read if I had not been advised the ticket was cancelled.

So I end up having wasted hours typing an appeal to end up paying the same amount in an admin fee and having lost a life as far as being allowed to not produce a ticket. A life, which I presume, I would have retained if I had just paid the fine.

While I was on the phone the RPSS so kindly suggested that I make the payment as soon as possible to avoid incurring further charges - she didn't say how long I have to do this and neither has the IPFAS. So I better pop a cheque in the post - wait a minute there are wild-cat post strikes - so I will have to phone again and wait another 5 - 10 minutes for the pleasure of parting with my money.

If money was no object I would be looking to take matters further to get justice but in this instance the B*s!*r's have ground me down.

Lesson of the story - never trust an official - if he says he is cancelling a ticket watch him write cancelled on it or tear it out of the book and give it to you. Oh! and put your ticket where you can find it.

PFP

LeeSouthEast

Hmm.

Pay £40 for failing to show valid ticket.
Appeal. Win.
Pay £40 for winning.

... that sounds somewhat unfair, and apart from confirming my flabber is entirely ghasted, I have no real advice. I'm sure someone else will be along shortly with something that'll help.

jkdd77

Don't pay!!!

As the PF was cancelled, without an explicit 'administration fee' deduction as such, you are NOT now liable to pay any administration fees.

You can neither be prosecuted nor (succesfully) sued, over a penalty fare that has been officially cancelled [payment of the PF in the first place discharged any liability to prosecution]. They are just trying to scam you- if you ignore them for long enough, they will eventually crawl back under their stone and move on to other victims.

Non-payment of any administration fee would be a civil matter, not a criminal matter. However, in any case, any administration fee must not exceed £10 as per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage- which illustrates that they are wilfully breaking the rules, so they would have absolutely no chance of winning a penny from you in any court, especially as you had been told by the guard that the ticket had been cancelled at the outset.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

35. Season Ticket or photocard unavailable for inspection
If you do not show a Season Ticket, or any photocard required with a Season Ticket,
when asked by staff or agents of a Train Company, you will be treated as having
joined a train without a ticket and the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.
If, subsequently, you present at the office where the Season Ticket was issued:
(a) the Season Ticket;
12
(b) the photocard, if required; and
(c) the additional tickets you have purchased or any Penalty Fares Notices,
the relevant Train Company may, at its discretion, refund any fares paid in
accordance with Condition 2 or 4 less a reasonable administration charge (not

exceeding £10).

Also, see: http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/wordpress/?p=421

FARE-COP

jkdd77 wrote: »

Don't pay!!!

Non-payment of any administration fee would be a civil matter, not a criminal matter. However, in any case, any administration fee must not exceed £10 as per the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

Not quite correct. That applies to TOCs, but IPFAS are (laughably listed as) an independent body and can ask for their admin fees. These fees are not enforceable in any way other and, you are of course right in that non payment of an admin fee is a civil matter.

I'd ask them to meet me at my local Police station during office hours to collect their fee for a cancelled liability before an independent witness!

In short, tell them you have no intention of paying their exhorbitant fee and that all their costs were incurred by the TOCs staffs negligence. Ask them to collect it from Southern Trains.

jkdd77

As FARE-COP alludes to, IPFAS are owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern’s head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. Clearly very independent!:rolleyes:
http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/wordpress/?p=421

I can't imagine any judge in the country looking kindly on Southeastern's blatant attempt to evade the clear stipulations of the NRCOC and profit from their own negligience over an agreed fare liability of £0.00, all the more so when the amount claimed is so extortionate and disproportionate to their actual costs incurred, as well as totally disproportionate (by an infinite amount) to the fare now due.

Southeastern made the mistakes, so they are liable for any costs incurred by themselves. At most, IPFAS could only claim for a reasonable pre-estimate of their actual losses as a result of the OP's actions.

Surely it would defeat the whole purpose of the appeal system if people are forced to pay twice as much for winning an appeal?

Was it made clear that the OP would be forced to pay administration costs for winning an appeal? If not, then any contractual basis for the charge would seem to be very shaky, particularly with regard to the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

The IAS website expressly states that appeals are completely free to rail users: http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/sracop.swf (page 3).
It would seem reasonable for the OP to assume that the same would apply to IPFAS unless clearly stated otherwise. After all, why should passengers be penalised by a TOCs decision to select one "indepedent" appeal body rather than another?

I think Southeastern have as much chance of winning in court as I have of winning the lottery. In this specific case, I would treat them in the same way as a PPC invoice; ignore, ignore, and ignore again (why waste the cost of a stamp?)

patfrompenge

Guys - Many thanks for your words of support. I can feel my fighting spirit beginning to be re-kindled already.

As I did not keep my PFN, can anyone post a link to a pdf of a Penalty Fare Notice that I could down load?

When I spoke to the Debt Recovery people they said that the PFN mentions the Admin fee.I want to see if it does actually make any reference on the actual notice to the possibility of incurring an administration fee whether or not it is specific regarding an amount.

regards
PFP

jkdd77

Yes,

http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/pfnotice.swf

It says.. "if you do not pay all monies owing an admistration fee may be charged"...but you have no 'monies owing', therefore there is quite simply no contractual basis in the documentation for any admin fee to be charged (other than the NRCOC clause, which FARE-COP has helpfully explained does not apply to IPFAS, so they can't even rely on that either).

Note also from the same website (homepage), that the appeals bodies charge the TOC an admin fee (c. £6) for EVERY Penalty Fare that is appealed regardless of the outcome of the appeal. The whole basis of the PF appeals system is that it is free to the rail user, with the admin costs (of apparently about £6) met by the TOC.

Having presumably charged themselves (same company) an admin fee to cover their own costs, they are now trying to scam you, and will doubtless send you endless threatening letters threatening you with every peril under the sun.
They will rely on you becoming scared and paying up- don't- you have nothing to fear! They can't make you pay an penny unless they actually win a court case against you, and they have no chance of winning a small claims case against a properly constructed defence, particularly in the light of the recent Foxtons ruling on unfair contract terms: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8144161.stm

"This ruling sends out a clear and unambiguous message that businesses offering services need to ensure unexpected or surprising terms are not hidden away in small print," said OFT chief executive, John Fingleton.
"Contracts need to be written in clear and straightforward language with important provisions, particularly those which may disadvantage consumers as in this case, given prominence and actively brought to people's attention," he added."

If they do actually threaten prosecution over an unpaid admin fee, then they should themselves be reported to the police for a criminal offence under section 40 (1)(b) of the Administration of Justice Act 1970:
40.
Punishment for unlawful harassment of debtors.
— (1) A person commits an offence if, with the object of coercing another person to pay money claimed from the other as a debt due under a contract, he—
(b)
falsely represents, in relation to the money claimed, that criminal proceedings lie for failure to pay it;

http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?LegType=All+Primary&PageNumber=1&NavFrom=2&parentActiveTextDocId=1663425&activetextdocid=1663463

If you need formal reassurance from an official body, e-mail Passenger Focus and/or the Office of the Rail Regulator to ask whether an administration fee of £40 can be lawfully charged by an appeals body after an appeal that has been upheld in its entirety, such that no fare is now due.

The DfT website makes clear that the administration costs of the PF appeals scheme must be met by the TOCs, not the rail users, so the answer looks to be pretty straightforward:

Independence.The organisation deciding the appeals must be, and must be seen to be, independent of the day-to-day commercial management of individual operators. The cost of this organisation should be met by the operators, as it is part of the cost of using penalty fares as a way of protecting revenue. However, the funding of the appeals organisation should be independent of whether it accepts or turns down the appeals it processes.
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/penaltyfarespolicya?page=7

patfrompenge

My sincere thanks for the guidance you have provided for me. I will do my best to put it to good use.

strawberry9

At the point of issue the full penalty fare was due "if you do not pay all monies owing an admistration fee may be charged"...
Sounds like you waited to see if you won the appeal and neglected to pay the penalty fare within the 21 days specified.
Penalty Fare rules 8.3 e and 8.3 g apply
The admin fee was only raised due to late payment, the admin fee is issued on day 40 after issue
It's up to you whether you pay ... but it will remain outstanding and should you be unlucky enough to have another railway offence for fare evasion the inspector may deal with you quite differently!
You will not be prosecuted for the £40 admin fee

jkdd77

The OP didn't pay at the time because she was told that the PF had been cancelled...

Why should she pay an amount that is not legally due?

strawberry9 wrote: »

At the point of issue the full penalty fare was due "if you do not pay all monies owing an admistration fee may be charged"...
Sounds like you waited to see if you won the appeal and neglected to pay the penalty fare within the 21 days specified.
Penalty Fare rules 8.3 e and 8.3 g apply
The admin fee was only raised due to late payment, the admin fee is issued on day 40 after issue
It's up to you whether you pay ... but it will remain outstanding and should you be unlucky enough to have another railway offence for fare evasion the inspector may deal with you quite differently!
You will not be prosecuted for the £40 admin fee