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M&S reply to cca.

HI

I wrote to M&S back in Jan 09 for my cca. I have heard nothing except have demands sent (I have stopped paying for now because they failed to send me agreement). This week (6 months later) I received a letter and a totally illegible copy of what is suppost to be my agreement. The agreement they sent is a copy of someones application form but they have blanked out the details it was a joint application (you can see they have deleted a partners details) mine however was a single application. There were no T&C just this one piece of paper.

However the letter says that

''Further to our letter of 12th March in which we confirmed that a copy of your agreement was not available at that time.

We have complied with the requirements of section (77)(78) of the consumer credit act 1974, in particular we have supplied copies compliant with Regulation 3(2)(b) of the consumer credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983. There is no requirement under section (77)(78) that the original or a photocopy of the original signed agreement be provided.
Furthermore there is no duty under the act obliging a creditor to provide further copies of agreements or notices already supplied under sections 62, 63 and 64 of the act. Theses copies and notices are required to be provided to the customer when the agreement was made and this was done at the time. If it is your assertion that we did not comply with these sections at the time the agreement was made, we will be obliged to put you to strict proof.
We have provided in good faith all the information we are required to provide under section 77 or 78 of the consumer credit act 1974. M&S Money beleive that your agreement is legally enforceable and as such refute all your allegations.
As the information ahs now been provided the account is no longer in dispute and our normal collection actions has resumed''.

Any idea on what i do next?

They havent sent anything that remotely looks like a agreement but they say that they have and that they have sent their final word on the matter. How can that be, they admited back in march they didnt have an agrrement, and they still dont have one but have come up with any old thing and saying that will do.

Any help whatsoever would be appreciated, i dont know where to go on this one.
«13

Comments

  • GeorgeUK
    GeorgeUK Posts: 7,737 Forumite
    At work right now, so can only do a quick note.

    They have given you a copy of someone elses CCA - this is a breach of the Data Protection Act.
    They have not provided a 'legible' copy so have not fulfilled their legal obligation.
    They have not provided a copy of YOUR CCA. One of the basic terms required for ALL CCA's is that it has the name and address of the consumer.
    After falling off the gambling wagon (twice): £33,600 (24,000+ 9,600) - Original CC Debt: £7,885.91

    Dad Gift 6k ¦ Savings & Inv Tst: £2,500
    Loan 10k: £0 ¦ Dad 5.5k: £2,270 ¦ LTSB: £0 ¦ RBS: £0 ¦ Virgin £0 ¦ Egg £0

    Total Owed: £2,270 (+6k) 11/08/2011
  • GeorgeUK wrote: »
    At work right now, so can only do a quick note.

    They have given you a copy of someone elses CCA - this is a breach of the Data Protection Act.
    They have not provided a 'legible' copy so have not fulfilled their legal obligation.
    They have not provided a copy of YOUR CCA. One of the basic terms required for ALL CCA's is that it has the name and address of the consumer.

    Yes they sent someone elses but they blanked out their details.

    Can you point me in the direction of a letter for illegibality please?
  • Sorry to repeat, but can anyone point me in the direction of letter regarding illegible agreements and what legislation it comes under.

    Thanks in advance.
  • GeorgeUK
    GeorgeUK Posts: 7,737 Forumite
    Sorry - not had access to a computer at home recently and been hectic at work.

    Pinched this letter from the consumeractiongroup forum.
    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/201235-sainsburys-intrum-justitia-cca.html
    Dear Sir / Madam

    Thank you for your response to my letter dated 2nd February 2009, making a formal request for a true copy of the original agreement for the above account under the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 77/78.

    The document you supplied me is no more than an illegible application form and is such not a satisfactory response to my request. Furthermore it is someone elses application form.

    To clarify, The Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices and Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983 SI No 1557 states:

    Legibility of notices and copy documents and wording of prescribed Forms 2(1).
    The lettering in every notice in a Form prescribed by these Regulations and in every copy of an executed agreement, security instrument or other document referred to in the Act and delivered or sent to a debtor, hirer or surety under any provision of the Act shall, apart from any signature, be easily legible and of a colour which is readily distinguishable from the colour of the paper.

    Notwithstanding the fact that the application form sent is illegible it does not contain the prescribed terms. The required terms are laid out in regulations (SI 1983/1553) and are covered by sections 60 and 61 Consumer Credit Act 1974

    To clarify s61(1) states

    (1)A regulated agreement is not properly executed unless—

    (a) a document in the prescribed form itself containing all the prescribed terms and conforming to regulations under section 60(1) is signed in the prescribed manner both by the debtor or hirer and by or on behalf of the creditor or owner, and

    (b) the document embodies all the terms of the agreement, other than implied terms, and

    (c) The document is, when presented or sent to the debtor or hirer for signature, in such a state that all its terms are readily legible

    In addition the prescribed terms referred to in section 60 CCA1974 are contained in schedule 6 column 2 of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1553) and are, among other things: - A term stating the credit limit or the manner in which it will be determined or that there is no credit limit, A term stating the rate of any interest on the credit to be provided under the agreement and A term stating how the debtor is to discharge his obligations under the agreement to make the repayments, which may be expressed by reference to a combination of any of the following—

    1.Number of repayments;
    2.Amount of repayments;
    3.Frequency and timing of repayments;
    4.Dates of repayments;
    5.The manner in which any of the above may be determined; or in any other way, and any power of the creditor to vary what is payable

    Since this document does not contain the required prescribed terms it is rendered unenforceable by s127 (3) consumer Credit Act 1974, which states

    127(3) The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a)(signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

    To summarise, it would appear that this illegible application form is unenforceable as it has have been improperly executed. The form does not contain all the prescribed terms set out in the Consumer Credit Act namely, the application does not state the credit limit, the rate of interest, details of any power to vary the agreement or debtors repayment obligations. All this is difficult to determine when referring to your agreement as it is virtually impossible to read. I believe that this application form is improperly executed, and as a consequence is unenforceable as an example see (Wilson v First County Trust CA).

    I now request

    (a) that you send me a legible, true copy of the executed agreement as required by the Consumer Credit Act 1974. It would appear to me that sending the correct signed copy (rather than an illegible application form) would clarify matters completely. If you are unable to supply the requested documentation because no such agreement is in existence I require written clarification as such.

    (b) that you comply with my request within 14 days of the date of this letter. I will not correspond any further with you until I either receive a copy of the required documents as laid down in section 78(1) CCA 74, or clarification that such an agreement doesn’t exist.

    Yours Faithfully

    Made some small adjustments, but you should have a good read of the letter and edit to suit.
    After falling off the gambling wagon (twice): £33,600 (24,000+ 9,600) - Original CC Debt: £7,885.91

    Dad Gift 6k ¦ Savings & Inv Tst: £2,500
    Loan 10k: £0 ¦ Dad 5.5k: £2,270 ¦ LTSB: £0 ¦ RBS: £0 ¦ Virgin £0 ¦ Egg £0

    Total Owed: £2,270 (+6k) 11/08/2011
  • stapeley
    stapeley Posts: 2,315 Forumite
    edited 13 July 2009 at 2:13PM
    I would keep what they sent you very safe ! If it ever went to court , and you showed the Judge what they sent you , I believe they would be in very deep DO DO,S.
  • Broken_hearted
    Broken_hearted Posts: 9,553 Forumite
    Sounds like M&S they ignor anything the dont like.
    Barclaycard 3800

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  • gfplux
    gfplux Posts: 4,985 Forumite
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts Photogenic Hung up my suit!
    Government slave, make sure you send the letter recorded delivery. Keep the receipt in a safe place
    There will be no Brexit dividend for Britain.
  • GeorgeUK wrote: »
    Sorry - not had access to a computer at home recently and been hectic at work.

    Pinched this letter from the consumeractiongroup forum.
    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/other-institutions/201235-sainsburys-intrum-justitia-cca.html


    Made some small adjustments, but you should have a good read of the letter and edit to suit.

    Thanks George. I have sent your letter today via Recorded Delivery.
  • Hi everyone.
    Thanks for the posts and the advice very much appreciated.

    I had a letter in June from Rockwell saying they were collecting on behave of M&S. It has just dawned on me that M&S passed account to DCA when they knew they had no agreement. (I know im a bit slow). I wrote to them in June with a 'Bemused letter' that i found while searching on here, however today i have received another letter from Rockwell from their pre-litigation dept saying that they were going to send someone round and start court proceedings.
    How can they when I have proof M&S said they had no agreement??

    Do i send the bemused letter again??
    If not what do I do next??
    Isnt there a doorstep letter i can sent?? I remember seeing at some point (I think).

    Any advice appreciated.
    Thanks in advance
  • Sounds like M&S they ignor anything the dont like.

    Yes M&S listen to nothing you say. They seem to think they are above the law.
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