Ebay Auctions are Auctions. CONFIRMED

cyril82

For those of you puzzled by the title of this thread it is a follow on from a previous thread where one of our fellow MSE users attempted to suggest sellers had less rights to challenge paypal over forced refunds as "ebay auctions are not auctions" meaning exemptions to the Distance selling Regulations did not apply.
You can read the full thread here, http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1766875&highlight=

I felt these comments to be grossly misleading and felt they would discourage sellers who have lost money from challenging paypal via the ombudsman.
Therefore in the interest of not misinforming MSE users i contacted the OFT for clarification who recommended that i contact Consumer Direct whom they refer all general enquires to. So on the recommendation of the Office of Fair Trading i contacted Consumer Direct who have confirmed that ebay auctions are auctions and exemptions to the distance selling regulations do apply and therefore everything that Dontdoit said in the thread linked above was wrong.

Here is the full response from consumer direct about how distance selling regulations apply to ebay:

Sent:6/23/2009 12:25:16 PM (GMT-05:00)Expires:7/23/2009 12:25:16 PM (GMT-05:00)Fromdvice@consumerdirect-northwest.gov.ukSubject:Consumer Direct Response To Enquiry
To (Email removed)

Dear Mr *****
Thank you for your enquiry to Consumer Direct dated 22/06/2009 Your reference number for this case is NW **** and should be quoted in all further correspondence regarding this case.

We understand you would like to enquire as to how the Distance Selling Regulations apply to the online auction site ebay. You wish to know if there is a difference in how the law applies to online auctions as opposed to offline auctions. You are selling your own goods on ebay, ebay have told you that you may have obligations under the Distance Selling Regulations. You wish to know the difference between an online auction as opposed to an offline auction.

Distance Selling Regulations covers some contracts which have been concluded by means of distance communication e.g. telephone, internet, mail order etc. Under these regulations, consumers have 7 working days (day 1 is the day after you receive the goods) in which to cancel and ask for a full refund (including delivery charges). If the trader has not provided confirmation of a consumers cancellation rights, the consumer would have 3 months and 7 working days to cancel. Alternatively, a consumer can cancel at any time before they receive the goods and claim a full refund. Any refund should be issued within 30 days from the date of cancellation.

The Distance Selling Regulations would not apply to an online auction, unless the consumer purchased the item at a 'buy it now' price and the seller was a trader not a private seller. Ebay may request that you advise on the Distance Regulations as part of the agreement to use there services to sell your goods.

If selling through an auction either online or at an auction house, then the law requires that any goods sold must be 'as described'. If the goods were misdescribed, then you may seek to reject the goods and ask for a refund, or seek a partial refund to account for any misdescription. The seller has no responsibility for the 'satisfactory quality' or 'fitness for purpose' of the goods, although they may describe the goods in such a way that a fault may amount to a breach of the description.

If you require any further advice or information about this case, please do not hesitate to contact Consumer Direct on 08454 04 05 06 quoting the case reference number.
Thank you for your enquiry.

S*****
Consumer Direct Northwest


So there is proof that the exeptions to distance selling regulations do apply to ebay auctions.

Don't be mislead by posters on MSE who post radical statements but refuse to back them up!

thePS3man

isnt that what ebay have been saying all along that only business sellers have to comply withthe distance selling regulations and that they dont apply to auctions or private sellers

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/business.html#returns

Under the Distance Selling Regulations, buyers have a period of 7 working days after the date of delivery within which they can cancel the contract (often referred to as the "cooling off" period) and get their money back, including the original postage and packing charges. You must refund the original delivery charges. However, you are permitted to require the buyer to pay for the cost of returning the item, but only if you clearly inform the buyer of this before the contract is made.
If you didn't provide information about your business required under the Distance Selling Regulations, the buyer has up to 3 months to cancel the contract and get their money back. To get a general idea of the laws governing distance sales, we recommend that you review BERR’s summary of the Distance Selling Regulations.
(Please note that, under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended), there's no legal requirement for you to provide a refund if the buyer simply changes their mind.)
2) Where do the Distance Selling Regulations apply?
The Distance Selling Regulations generally apply to sales to non-business buyers made by sellers acting in the course of a business, which have been made at a distance. In other words, where there is no face-to-face contact between the seller and the buyer before the contract is made. The Distance Selling Regulations usually cover sales made over the internet, including:

• Buy It Now listings on eBay.co.uk
  
• Second Chance Offers on eBay.co.uk
  

The UK Distance Selling Regulations do not apply to eBay auction format listings on eBay.co.uk, and do not apply to all types of items.
If your listing doesn't fall under the Distance Selling Regulations, you're not legally obliged to refund a buyer if they change their mind. However, you may choose to provide a service that goes beyond the minimum legal requirement in order to encourage consumers to buy from you. For more information, see BERR’s summary of the Distance Selling Regulations.

no need to wast your tim getting angry on an internt forum when the informationis on the ebay help pages


i no i dont have to offer a refund or return policy but i just think its a nice thing to do for buyers but you must see buyers as the enemy if yuo are so up on getting legal on people.


maybe you should get out a bit more - it cant be doing your blood presure any good.


life is too short - live it while you can.

DaveAshton

Distance Selling Regulations only apply to Buy it Now items. Buy it Now, by definition, is not an auction (there's no bidding).

peter_the_piper

Do the DSR also apply to traders selling perishable goods such as plants. The last time I spoke to Trading Standards they were exempt. This was before Ebay became big though.

cyril82

thePS3man wrote: »

isnt that what ebay have been saying all along that only business sellers have to comply withthe distance selling regulations and that they dont apply to auctions or private sellers


no need to wast your tim getting angry on an internt forum when the informationis on the ebay help pages


i no i dont have to offer a refund or return policy but i just think its a nice thing to do for buyers but you must see buyers as the enemy if yuo are so up on getting legal on people.


maybe you should get out a bit more - it cant be doing your blood presure any good.


life is too short - live it while you can.

I'm afraid you have got your wires crossed, i'm not angry at all. The couple of users who were making stupid claims that ebay auctions were not auctions made the challenge to me to prove ebay auctions were auctions, i gave them general guidance notes from the OFT and links to ebay's own website where they state it themselves, however they still tried to argue their point, so in the interest of dispelling some of the mass of misinformation that is contained within these forums i decided to clarify it, not because i'm angry just to dispel the myths that some people are creating in these forums.

You further get your wires crossed when you assume i see "buyers as the enemy" or that i am somehow trying to teach people how to screw buyers over.

If you read the original thread and the links to the News article within, what i was discussing is when ebay allow private sellers to auction their goods, stating no returns (which obviously doesn't apply if you mis-describe your item) the buyer receives the goods all seems well then a week or more later they start asking for a refund. The seller does not have to refund but paypal force them to, either by striping the money from their account of putting their account into arrears and sending debt collectors after them.

The other example is when paypal force the refund, tell the buyer to return the item without the agreement of the seller then refund the buyer despite the seller never actually getting their goods back.

The two examples above often leave people out of pocket financially and often being harassed by debt collectors.

I don't care what anyone say's that's wrong and anyone affected by this can go to the financial ombudsman and may get their money back.

It's not about telling sellers how to screw people over, it's about telling them what to do when paypal screw them over.

cyril82

peter_the_piper wrote: »

Do the DSR also apply to traders selling perishable goods such as plants. The last time I spoke to Trading Standards they were exempt. This was before Ebay became big though.

Perishable goods are exempt from DSR's whether you are a trader or private seller.

cyril82

For anyone under the misconception that this about screwing buyers over read this;

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/1039255/letter-beleagured-paypal-user

The article above is one guys (all too familiar) story of how he was left Severely out of pocket (£700) by paypal. He should never have been made to repay the money and even the police advised him not to pay but did paypal care? no they just harassed the guys elderly parents via debt collectors until he paid up to spare his parents the distress.

cyril82

Ok that's great, ebay are not a traditional "auctioneer" ebay are a "venue" ebay are not liable for loss or death caused by negligence Blah Blah Blah,

But what they are is an online auction, "auctioneer" maybe not but as i said all along that is irrelevant.

For the purpose of those who have been left out of pocket such as in the example's in the news article in my first thread and the example given in the link a couple of posts up ebay sales by bidding are categorically and undisputably classed in law as the same as offline auctions for the purpose of implementing Distance Selling Regulations and the exemptions to Distance selling Regulations apply To Ebay auctions the same as they do offline auctions.

No need to ask ebay, they are hardly impartial and this has been confirmed by the OFT and Consumer Direct.

Dontdoit is entitled to use these forums to continue to attempt to discredit what i have posted and press home his points of view, all you need decide is who to believe, him or The Office of Fair Trading and Consumer Direct.

That decision is yours to make and not for me to make for you, i have provided the official line of relevant advisory and regulatory bodies. Dontdoit has provided his opinion.

I have nothing more to say, except don't accept paypal forcing you to loose substantial amounts of money as in the examples given in this and the original thread, you can do something about it if you want to, contact the ombudsman.

thePS3man

cyril82 wrote: »

Still they persist to demand i admit i'm wrong, i'm not arguing with them about it, i asked the OFT and Consumer Direct for clarification so that i could post something helpful and definite on what people can do in these circumstances.

my first post contains consumer directs stance, the oft confirm this is the case, so these numpties are not asking me to admit i'm wrong they are asking me to join them in telling people that The Oft And Consumer direct are wrong.........

all you;'ve done is post a confirmation that private sellers and auction listings ar not covered under the distande selling regs - which everyone seems to know already and ebay have confirmd in there own helkp pages.

youve not said about anything else that can be done and all the letter from the oft says is to ring the telephone number. i just cant see what the big noiuse is all about its not like you have made some sort of legal precident with this information.

your gettin yourself wound up over nothing at all mate.

RFW

cyril82 wrote: »

Furthermore i do not see what relevance or benefit the Money Saving Expert team can adjudge a board full of misinformation designed to STOP consumers getting back what is rightfully theirs or scaremongering them into submission when they are treated unfairly by a large company can have to a so called "consumer" forum.

Consumer forums are supposed to help not obstruct the consumer.

To add another dimension to the arguments, consumers are end buyers, you appear to be for "seller's rights", they may be consumers of Ebay's services, but it is the buyer who is protected most on Ebay.

Your facts regarding auctions are as I stated in another thread, an auction is not classed as such if the items aren't available to be viewed. If someone claims to have an item not as described, albeit for the minutest detail, the rights of the consumer for an online auction are the opposite of those where the goods can be inspected and caveat emptor is in force. Having said that, this too is also a grey area as auction houses often have to refund irrespective of their terms and conditions.

Auction houses have been succesfully prosecuted for misrepresentation of goods despite having 'caveat emptor' as a defence.

thePS3man

NeilJung wrote: »

Thanks Cyril for the valuable information. The dignity with which you have conducted yourself in the face of repeated personal attacks (yet again) in this thread is remarkable.

are you readingf different threads to the rest of us?! cyril trades childish insults and angry rants with the rest of them evben in this thread.

maybe theres some usefuil info in amongsth the rants and stuff but who is going to read it all?

look at how he jumped down my throat on my first post even thouhg ive never had any posts with him befoer. hes one of thiose that can noyt accept that others have a differemnt opinon to him. looking over previous threads hes been involved in there are lots of people hes attcked and then tried toi play the victim himself.

the guy is seriously disturbed. and ultra paranoid