It may be possible to reclaim money from paypal!

soolin

Old news I know and not in the UK so not the basis for any UK arguments but Germany do not consider Ebay sales to be auctions:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/03/ebay_catalogue/

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

If thats going to be the basis of your case, :rotfl:. Why not also bring a copy of the daily mail into court and use that.

You are meant to be making a case here, your case seems to centre around an unknown dictionaries definition of the word 'Auction'. Where are you going to go from there.

I tend to prefer the following definition of an auction

"A method of attaining a price for sale by an auctioneer for the sale of goods or land by competitive bids. The contract of sale is created on the falling of the auctioneer's hammer. If a reserve price is not reached, the goods may be sold to the highest bidder, or withdrawn. Online 'auctions' generally do not fall under the common law definition of an auction."

http://www.gillhams.com/dictionary/107.cfm

But that was written by a solicitor, so what does he (or she) know. Feel free, at this point, to argue about the meaning of "generally", as I'm sure thats where you'll go next. But instead, I would point you into looking at whether ebay is classed as an "auction".

The Oxford English dictionary is not exactly unknown. :rolleyes:

The link you post is one solicitor giving a "general" example of what a typical auction is, it does not in any way suggest or prove that ebay sales by bidding are not an auction.

i find this argument ludicrous as sale by bidding, by the very definition of the term, is an auction and there is absolutely nothing in English law that contradicts that.

Also i do not intend at this point to present a case against ebay or paypal and if i did it certainly would not be based on a newspaper article, nor do i suggest anyone else take a legal route, i suggested they lodge a complaint with the financial ombudsman if they have lost money due to this kind of ebay/paypal forced refund especially where the seller never received their goods back.

To be honest I’m surprised that no one on these so called consumer forums Seems to support sellers who lose out especially when they are having their legal rights removed by a corporation that realy does not have the authority to do so.

I doubt if any of the supporters of paypal lost a substantial amount of money due to this grossly unfair policy they would maintain this unshakeable loyalty to paypal.

cyril82

soolin wrote: »

Old news I know and not in the UK so not the basis for any UK arguments but Germany do not consider Ebay sales to be auctions:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/03/ebay_catalogue/

Well as you say Soolin this is not UK law it is in fact a German example.

It also does not so much prove that ebay sales are not auctions but rather that for the purpose of implementing distance selling regulations German courts will exclude internet auctions from the exemption of the distance selling regulations, this is based on the fact that in internet auctions the buyer and seller don't deal face to face and so German legislators have decided that internet auctions should have the same protection as Mail order sales.

The uk does not share this view and the Oft do class internet auctions as auctions as shown here ...

Exceptions to the regulations

The regulations do not apply to:

• financial services
• sale of land or buildings
• purchases from a vending machine or automated commercial premises
• the use of a public pay phone
• auctions, including internet auctions -
• rental agreements that have to be in writing (i.e. a lease for three years or more)

Read the full list of exemptions here http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/regulation-exceptions

dontdoit_2

cyril82 wrote: »

i suggested they lodge a complaint with the financial ombudsman if they have lost money due to this kind of ebay/paypal forced refund especially where the seller never received their goods back.

And I am waiting to hear what you intend to actually base your complaint on. So far you have shown a dictionary definition, then you debunk a solicitor due to the fact he

is

cyril82 wrote: »

giving a "general" example of what a typical auction is, it does not in any way suggest or prove that ebay sales by bidding are not an auction.

even though you beleive that the dictionary definition you posted is enough to base your argument on

Now, would you care to "suggest or prove that ebay sales by bidding are an auction" as so far you have failed to make ANY case at all.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

Now, would you care to "suggest or prove that ebay sales by bidding are an auction" as so far you have failed to make ANY case at all.

i find your posts quite bizarre, i have presented a case that ebay sales by bidding are auctions by definition and that the Office of Fair trading classes online auctions as auctions, however, since you seem totally determined not to take anything i say as fact, or the OFT for that matter, how about hearing it from the horses mouth, so to speak, here are two links from eBay’s own website where they describe their sales by bidding as auctions, is this good enough?

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/auction.html

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/formats.html

dontdoit_2

cyril82 wrote: »

i find your posts quite bizarre, i have presented a case that ebay sales by bidding are auctions by definition and that the Office of Fair trading classes online auctions as auctions, however, since you seem totally determined not to take anything i say as fact, or the OFT for that matter, how about hearing it from the horses mouth, so to speak, here are two links from eBay’s own website where they describe their sales by bidding as auctions, is this good enough?

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/auction.html

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/sell/formats.html

OK, lets see where the word auction is used there

EBAY wrote:

When to choose the classic eBay way to sell

Most listings on eBay use the standard online auction format.

A typical auction-style listing works this way:

• The seller offers one or more items and sets a starting price.
  
• Buyers visit the listing and bid on the item during the online auction's duration.
  
• When the auction-style listing ends, the high bidder or bidders buy the item from the seller for the high bid.
  

The auction-style format is flexible. When you use it, you will be given many options, including giving buyers an opportunity to buy at a fixed price (Buy It Now), selling multiple identical items, and setting a hidden minimum-selling price (reserve price.)




Auction format is probably the right format for you, unless:

• <LI class=unorderedList>You would rather offer your item only at your specified price, and not accept bids in the auction process. In that case, choose Fixed Price.
  
  <LI class=unorderedList>You are selling a car, truck or other vehicle. You can also list your item in a Classified Ad.
  
• You have many items for sale and want to open an eBay Shop. In that case, set up your Shop.

• 
  

No, its not looking good for you there.

Lets look at the T&Cs

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/user-agreement.html

EBAY wrote:

You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, our sites are a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as stores, shops, fixed price formats and auction-style formats. At no point do we have possession of anything listed or sold through eBay.
We do not review users’ listings or content and are not involved in the actual transaction between buyers and sellers. While we may help facilitate the resolution of disputes through various programmes, we have no control over and do not guarantee the quality, safety or legality of items advertised, the truth or accuracy of listings, the truth or accuracy of feedback or other content posted by users on our sites, the ability of sellers to sell items, the ability of buyers to pay for items, or that a buyer or seller will actually complete a transaction or return an item. For certain categories, particularly motors and real estate, or bid or offer is a non-binding transaction representing a buyer’s serious expression of interest in buying the seller’s item.

Look even worse for you there. Nowhere on that site do they state they are an auctioneer.

Still you have failed to prove your point that ebay are an auction. Infact you link to the site that disproves your theory.

If you STILL think you are correct, make a complaint, come back here in a few months and let us know how you got on. Just don't keep posting the same thread every now and again that has no merit whatsoever.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

OK, lets see where the word auction is used there

• 
  

No, its not looking good for you there.

Lets look at the T&Cs

http://pages.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/user-agreement.html



Look even worse for you there. Nowhere on that site do they state they are an auctioneer.

Still you have failed to prove your point that ebay are an auction. Infact you link to the site that disproves your theory.

If you STILL think you are correct, make a complaint, come back here in a few months and let us know how you got on. Just don't keep posting the same thread every now and again that has no merit whatsoever.

you don't actually state why you think example 1 or example 2 prove, suggest, or imply that ebay sales are not auctions, so i really do have no idea how you are arriving at your conclusion that ebay sales by bidding are not auctions, but lets face it, i have provided the English dictionary's definition of an auction, OFT literature that says online auctions are classed as auctions and ebay's own website content where ebay themselves state that their sales are auctions yet you continue to protest, how can i argue, i suspect if i told you this post was typed in black text you would tell me it was white.

Lets just leave it this, i think ebay sales by bidding are auctions, the English dictionary agrees, the Office of Fair Trading agrees, ebay themselves agree, but you disagree.

Fair enough, each to their own, now moving on........

dontdoit_2

(Hit the wrong button above " thank you", but just sue me)

cyril82 wrote: »

i have provided the English dictionary's definition of an auction, OFT literature that says online auctions are classed as auctions and ebay's own website content where ebay themselves state that their sales are auctions

As I take it you can write english, I thought you could read and understand it as well.

English dictionary's definition of an auction - I provided a legal definition (or at least one lawyers definition) which tears yours to bits

OFT literature that says online auctions are classed as auctions - NOPE, can't see them specifically mentioning ebay there, all they mention is "auctions, including internet auctions" so even they admit that there is a difference between auctions and internet auctions

and ebay's own website content where ebay themselves state that their sales are auctions - I provided enough ebay links (even T&Cs) that say they are NOT an auction, or care to point out where they say they are an auction (action style is a totally different meaning by the way)

Again, you have FAILED to prove your point that ebay are an actioneer.

I'll correct your statement for you as it should read

whatIshouldhavesaid wrote: »

Lets just leave it this, i think ebay sales by bidding are NOT auctions, the English dictionary DOES NOT provide any proof, the Office of Fair Trading does NOT provide any proof, ebay themselves DO NOT agree

Thats a lot better now, and fits in with the facts. Just as an aside, are you aware of the legal liability of auctioneers in this country? and why EBAY themselves do not consider themselves to be auctioneers. You just have to look at the wording on the T&Cs to see ebay are doing everything possible to distance themselves from being an auctioneer.

At this point, if you go on, you're going to dillute your argument, that is already in tatters, to one of a farce.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

As I take it you can write english, I thought you could read and understand it as well.

English dictionary's definition of an auction - I provided a legal definition (or at least one lawyers definition) which tears yours to bits

OFT literature that says online auctions are classed as auctions - NOPE, can't see them specifically mentioning ebay there

and ebay's own website content where ebay themselves state that their sales are auctions - I provided enough ebay links (even T&Cs) that say they are NOT an auction, or care to point out where they say they are an auction (action style is a totally different meaning by the way)

Again, you have FAILED to prove your point that ebay are an actioneer.

I'll correct your statement for you as it should read





Thats a lot better now, and fits in with the facts.

Ok, you have made you point clear you don't class ebay sales as auctions, if ebay say their sales are auctions Ebay are wrong, if the oft say those sales are auctione the oft are wrong if i say they are auctions i am wrong.

Seems the only person who is never wrong is you, :rotfl::rotfl:

And adding "style" to something does not change it's definition, if i started selling illegal fire arms but told the police they were illegal "style" fire arms would i be ok, lol :rotfl::rotfl:

cyberbob

cyril82 wrote: »

1. or (plural auctions) sale by bidding: a sale of goods or property at which intending buyers bid against one another for individual items, each of which is sold to the bidder offering the highest price an Internet auction

A Dictionary definition would not get you very far in court. What you need is the legal definition. Which is why ebay are specify they are auction style so that they don't have follow the rules of auctions.

You may think its an auction but that does not make it correct in english law. You may be morally correct that it is an auction but legally it is not, which is the bit that matters.

By repeating this in numerous different threads does not make your argument correct. It was interesting the first time but is now getting a little dull