bailiff help please

screwball

this is making me ill (

I have been to the council, they are unwilling to help in any way and I have just written to the local councillor stating my case, will wait for a reply.

I have also just phoned the bailiff because I requested a full breakdown in email and didnt receive a reply and I asked why I am being charged over £200 for a "removal bailiff" (who incidentally I havent seen because she just shoved the letter through my door).. and they said that this is a different type of bailiff and has a different set of charges... is this correct ???

They are giving me until the end of June to pay the full amount outstanding, I could just about to pay the full amount of the liability, but not the charges, would this stop the enforcement going ahead ??

sorry for babbling, but this really is making me feel at a loss.

thankyou again for all your help.. I have visited Herbies site, but at the moment need to watch the pennies because I am struggling.

x

RobertoMoir

screwball wrote: »

this is making me ill (

I have been to the council, they are unwilling to help in any way and I have just written to the local councillor stating my case, will wait for a reply.

Could you telephone? Your case is urgent.

screwball wrote: »

I have also just phoned the bailiff because I requested a full breakdown in email and didnt receive a reply and I asked why I am being charged over £200 for a "removal bailiff" (who incidentally I havent seen because she just shoved the letter through my door).. and they said that this is a different type of bailiff and has a different set of charges... is this correct ???

Well as I understand things, these days all bailiffs doing council tax collection need to be certificated. So they're either talking out of their butts or they're breaching the rules by using un-certificated bailiffs for part of the collection process. I'd love to hear them explain which one of those two options is true. (If you ring back to ask them that, be sure to tell them you've been taking advice from a former certificated bailiff with a lot of experience of enforcing council tax debt). Then tell them you'll need to see the liability order, the certificate of anyone who calls regarding the debt, their authority to act on behalf of the council, and a breakdown of all fees and charges added to the bill.

• There's no "different set of charges".
• Bailiffs can charge for 1st and 2nd visit to levy, if they don't levy on one of those dates
• If they levy, they can charge a levy fee
• If you sign a walking posession agreement at the time of the levy they can also charge a fee for that.
• If they need to enforce the debt after the levy, they can charge a "van fee" to attend with a van to remove goods. As I haven't been doing this for a long time, I can't remember if they can charge for that once or twice.
• They CAN'T charge those fees "out of order", so if they haven't levied on a prior date they can't charge the van/enforcement fee, for example.

Note that when I talk about what they can and can't do, I'm talking about what they're legally entitled to do. They'll probably attempt to screw you for all the fees they can (in fact it sounds like they already are:rolleyes:) and you'll need to watch that with them. This is why these people vary between making it difficult and impossible to get a breakdown of the bill.

screwball wrote: »

They are giving me until the end of June to pay the full amount outstanding, I could just about to pay the full amount of the liability, but not the charges, would this stop the enforcement going ahead ??

Long story short, No. They are entitled to enforce the debt including any legally charged fees. (Note italics)

screwball wrote: »

sorry for babbling, but this really is making me feel at a loss.

thankyou again for all your help.. I have visited Herbies site, but at the moment need to watch the pennies because I am struggling.

x

I know this is a very stressful ordeal, and I know this is easier for me to say than for you to do but please try to remain calm - there's no need to get upset if you can get the help you need and staying in control will help you get a better result from this.

Can you PM herbie on the board here? She's very busy but also very very helpful. There are a good few other people with good advice on these subjects and hopefully they'll chip in too, also I think one of them may know the correct spell to summon herbie.

screwball

I have tried to phone the councillor, but no joy yet.. I will keep trying.

just to make matters worse, I emailed the bailiff stating that I will pay the blooming balance of the liability order before the 3rd July, the fees on the 4th IF I receive a full breakdown and if they are legal.. (because it is making me feel ill...which is only 3 days after the extension the bailiff agreed to on the phone).. however, I have just had a "Notice of Distress" shoved through the door giving me 5 days to pay, stating the inventory is "all goods belonging to me except those exempt by special statute".. there is also a "walking possession agreement" which is NOT signed by me, but the interesting thing is that the fees are no longer the same as the previous letter received on Friday, they are now saying the fees are £60 less than on friday !! but they have given me a breakdown stating a levy fee of £46 and a fee of £110 for "other"... the difference being almost £60.

so not only do the balances differ, but the agreement on the phone has gone out of the window. This letter was literally just shoved through the letterbox, no knock at the door and when I looked outside there was no vehicle, just various people walking about. I think tomorrow I will just phone the court, as I now know which court they are claiming certified them.. any ideas on what to say please ?

I am trying to stay calm, although I admit Im not succeeding well.

when I get this sorted and can breathe again, I will definitely leave a donation, as I really do appreciate all the help.. and I will see if I can send Herbie a message a little later, if Im not in a corner somewhere dribbling lol.

RobertoMoir

Really, they posted a levy through your door saying that?
With a walking possession you haven't signed?

Awesome. No seriously, this is great stuff. They've uh... messed that one up big time (not that they hadn't done so before imo).

Ok point 1. RELAX. DO NOT WORRY.
They've just made a horrible mistake and it's now your turn to make the bailiffs feel some of the anxiety and stress their terrible behaviour has caused you, if you want.

DO NOT let go of that "levy" or walking posession no matter what you do.

PHONE the council and ask to speak to whoever is in charge of revenue collection and tell them you've been get getting advice from a former certificated bailiff; tell them how badly the bailiffs have behaved and that you now have proof that the bailiffs, whose actions they are responsible for as the bailiffs are their agents, are carrying out illegal and invalid levies; then tell them exactly what you just told us about what you received, and why you're complaining about it.

Oh yeah, the why. Where to start really.

• There's no such fee on the scheme of fees they can charge for council tax as "other".
• They can't levy on goods they don't have access to.
• A levy is invalid unless it's properly filled in and detailed, with proper descriptions of the goods being levied upon, and they've been in the same room as the goods being described (how else can they describe them accurately enough for a start).
• Walking possession agreements are totally invalid if they are not signed by the debtor at the time the levy takes place and the WP is agreed. You didn't sign the WP or agree to it.
• If they charged a fee for the WP this is also a big mistake (yet another illegal fee).
• If they didn't charge a fee for the WP this is a procedural mistake that underlines their clear incompetence (IIRC they _have_ to charge a WP fee if they have a WP).
• They've committed trespass due to this invalid levy. It invalidates the levy itself (as if it didn't invalidate itself about 5 other ways.. i know this is a circular arguement but work with me on this one) and all other actions taken and fees charged that rely on the levy are therefore irrelevant.

DO NOT let them have, let alone keep your original paperwork. I say that at this point because unless their head of revenue collection or whatever its called is either very stupid, drunk at their desk or completely incompetent they'll suffer a terrible anxiety attack and want to see this paperwork at the moment you explain all this.

If you really want to make trouble for the bailiffs, you need to find out which court certificated the bailiff handling your case and complain to them. I dare say that, again, if you told that court what you've just said here they may have a few choice words for the bailiff concerned.

You certainly could ring up the bailiff's office, ask to speak to whoever supervises the bailiffs and tell them pretty much word for word what I suggested you tell the council... Be sure to thank them for providing proof that their bailiff breaks the rules regarding levying for distress and that you'll be sure to share this with the court who certificated the bailiff responsible.

screwball

yay ! thankyou.. this puts me at east a little )

question though.. if a WP fee is illegal, how come they'd have to charge for one if they got a WP ??

Im off to work shortly, but when I return Im going to be getting really snotty with the council .. woohoo !!

((hugs))

needaspirin

I think you're going to struggle to do this alone. You'll find no help from the council, who will usually insist that you deal with the bailiff. If the bailiff has never entered the house he cannot charge for a van. It looks like the bailiff has been trying it on with his fees. They must provide you with a breakdown of charges. Keep all letters from them and take them to CAB asap.

RobertoMoir

screwball wrote: »

yay ! thankyou.. this puts me at east a little )

question though.. if a WP fee is illegal, how come they'd have to charge for one if they got a WP ??

Im off to work shortly, but when I return Im going to be getting really snotty with the council .. woohoo !!

((hugs))

Sorry, didn't make myself clear by the look of it.
Charging a fee for something you've not got a right to charge is illegal. Fees for an improperly done WP would therefore be illegal. A properly prepared, agreed and signed WP agreement would be just peachy and could legitimately be charged for.

RobertoMoir

Needasprin, if the council insist they deal with the bailiff - well firstly I'll be shocked given the nature of the bailiff's behaviour, and secondly it isn't like the bailiff can legally do anything except whistle down a well for the money.

There's no way in hell they can enforce the debt at this point, and the fact that they've charged illegal fees and left proof of that with the OP puts the bailiffs in a somewhat poor position to be demanding payments. Don't you think?

needaspirin

Hi RobertoMoir. Councils routinely refuse to intervene once they have passed the debt to the bailiff. That is the whole point of employing the bailiff in the first place. I once spoke to Head of CT collections at MBC who told me that she had personally instructed the bailiffs to be "more vigorous" in recovering debts.
Bailiffs are often bullies and thugs who have no idea of the limits to their power. Reasoning with a bailiff who insists on full payment is impossible.
Screwball should enlist outside help who can compile evidence against such a bailiff and who's voice can not be ignored by either the bailiff or the council.

RobertoMoir

As a former bailiff myself needasprin, I'm very well aware of the point you're trying to make. I've got considerable experience of the council tax recovery process and how the 'people' involved are likely to behave at any given time.

Please note that I've urged the OP to contact their local councillor through this, which has proven in the past to be an effective route for getting stuff like this looked at. I've also pointed them at other regulars here who have a lot of experience with complaining about this sort of thing.

My point is that the council and their agents don't have a leg to stand on, and unless the person running council tax at the council concerned is actually stupider than the chair they're sitting in (not impossible, I know) they'll realise this with this particular person's issues and deal with it.

If not, if push comes to shove, they'll get their !!! handed to them in court with a case like this.

But hopefully it won't come to that. The OP doesn't deserve the stress and they and the other council tax payers don't deserve the expense of the council trying to defend this sort of nonsense.