South West Trains Penalty

Freddie_Snowbits

I do not see what the problem is. last time I was running late for a train and the girl in the office was dealing with a mumptie. i just put 10 p in the ticket to ride machine and boreded my train. At the destination, I paid up and did not get fined!

Not dificult.

*
Alas with all public transport, I think that those that use them should be afforded the opportunity to purchase tickets in advance, including a 10p ticket to bored the train or bus. And the penalties for not having a ticket to ride before boreding should be punitive, i.e. if the season ticket for the Journey 7 days was £10, the fine should be £1,000, regardless. that way, it will be understood very quickly by the numpites that it is better to buy a season ticket, than run the risk. Also it would cut ingress congestion on buses, and reduce CO2 emissions. Anyone got a problem with that?

dzug1

pinkshoes wrote: »

"


Planes make it easy to pay before hand, and you always get a seat! :rolleyes:

.

That means if there are no seats you don't get on/don't get to buy the ticket in the first place.

Compulsory reservation for commuter trains anyone? Might stop a lot of the whinging about standing.

geordieracer

dzug1 wrote: »

That means if there are no seats you don't get on/don't get to buy the ticket in the first place.

Compulsory reservation for commuter trains anyone? Might stop a lot of the whinging about standing.

They would start whinging about having to reserve a seat!!

pelirocco

4743hudsonj wrote: »

as stated before

ignorance is no defence

that isnt a telling off but advice to you for the future

you cant go into a shop and take something if their is no cashier and say you intended to pay later

however the fines are rather iffy

YOU need to ask them for reasoning on this, unless somebody on here works for the company we cannot offer much more help

The difference he is he hadnt left the '' shop'' he was still in the rail system so to speak and asked to buy a ticket at a break in the journey

pinkshoes

geordieracer wrote: »

If you want a seat get an earlier or later train.. they can only be so long and if everyone wants to go at the same time how do you stop that? I would love to hear your ideas on how to ease this congestion becuase its quite obvious that the people who have been dedicating the last 20 years of their life in finding a solution are obviously not as clever as you.

I would have no objection to standing on a train if the fare was cheap to reflect it. In fact, I would happily pay for a standing ticket then stand in a standing carriage with hand rails to hold on to and no seats whatsoever.

Have all seats as flip down ones, so on peak services no one is allowed to sit down which would allow more people on. Those that want to sit can upgrade to first class.

Double decker trains (like in France)?

Extra carriages, where passengers have to walk down the train to alight if it won't fit on the platform.

The main thing that I don't like about trains is the cost vs what you actually get for your money. I think it's one of the least value for money things you can buy.

dinoman88

Hello all,

I had a similar incident whereby I thought I had money on my oyster card (had my headphones in at the time of beeping it) arrived at the other station to find it didn't go through (damm RFID technology).

anyway,

take this as advice (google 10 ways to avoid penalty fares on trains)


OUR 10 RULES FOR BEATING THE TICKET INSPECTOR
This advice is for National Rail services only. TfL has different rules with fewer safeguards. No legal liability is accepted.
1 Make a reasonable effort to buy a ticket before you get on.
It will weaken your case if you start from a station where there is a functioning ticket office or machine but make no attempt to use them. This does not, however, mean that you have to wait in a long queue and miss your train. See Rule Eight for the Government's guidance on what constitutes a reasonable waiting time.

2 If asked for a penalty fare, check that you actually have to pay one.
There are several non-penalty fare locations in London and the South- East - most importantly, Stansted airport. If your journey started at one of these locations, you cannot be charged a penalty fare. This probably applies even if you changed trains on to a penalty-fare service en route (see other box for full details).
There are other lines on which one operator has penalty fares and another does not (see box). If, for instance, you are asked for a penalty fare at the excess fares office at Euston and you have arrived on a train run by Virgin, not London Midland, you do not have to pay the penalty.
If you forget your season ticket, you do not have to pay a penalty fare. You may be issued with a "nil fare" penalty notice and asked to send in a photocopy of your season, or asked to buy a normal single ticket (which you can then get refunded at a ticket office on production of your season). You can only do this twice a year.
If you have a ticket between two places with multiple rail routes (eg London-Southend) but it is not valid for the route you are using, you cannot be charged a penalty fare - only the difference in price between the routes.
If you have a ticket for the right journey but it is not valid on the particular train you are using, this is a grey area. The Department for Transport's "Penalty Fares Policy" (clause 4.29) says you should not be charged a penalty fare, just the difference in price. But the National Rail conditions of carriage say holders of "some types of discounted tickets" can be charged a penalty. It is definitely worth arguing the point.

3 Check that the person asking for a penalty fare is an "authorised collector".
Under the Penalty Fares Rules 2002, sections 5 (2) and (3), only an "authorised collector ...individually authorised by or on behalf of the operator of that train" is allowed to collect penalty fares. Not all train guards and excess ticket office staff are authorised collectors. You have the right to ask them to produce the special identification document which proves that they are. (This also helps to return a measure of the "embarrassment factor", which some collectors use to get travellers to pay up.)
Check also whether the person asking you for a penalty has been authorised by the operator whose train you travelled on. At stations served by more than one train company, even where they both have penalty fares schemes, it may be that the people on the ticket barrier are authorised by one operator but not by the operator you used.

4 Even if they pass these tests, politely refuse to pay the penalty and simply pay the full single fare.
On the train or at the station, you have the absolute right to make only "a minimum payment that is equal to the full single fare which [you] would have had to pay for [your] journey if penalty fares had not applied." This is section 8 (2) of the Penalty Fares Rules 2002 - quote it if anyone tries to tell you different. (The full single fare means the fare without any railcard discounts, cheap offers etc.) Ignore any threats that may be made at this point if you refuse to pay the full sum - these are phoney and have no legal basis.

5 Never pay the penalty in the belief that you can recover it on appeal.
You are allowed to appeal against a penalty fare to one of two supposedly "independent" bodies. Most operators use the Independent Penalty Fares Appeals Service (IPFAS), others the Independent Appeals Service (IAS). But IPFAS is in fact owned by Southeastern Trains, is based at Southeastern's head office and all its staff are Southeastern employees. IAS was also until recently based in railway offices and its company secretary is a director of the company which runs the railways' ticketing system. In short, the appeal process is not independent of the rail operators, is not operated in your interests and is most unlikely to recover your money.

6 Give your correct name, address and journey details.
Once you have paid the single fare, the collector will then ask for your name and address so that they can send a demand for the rest to be paid within 21 days. They can check names and addresses while you wait with the electoral roll database. The only criminal offence in the whole penalty fares legislation is refusing to give a name and address, or giving a false one. So give the right details.

7 Once you have paid the minimum, they will hand you a form.
Check this carefully. It must show the authorised collector's name and identity, your correct details, the details of the journey you have taken and how much you have paid. Collectors are often careless. If any of these details are omitted or are wrong, and you can prove it, it is game over.

8 When the letter demanding the rest arrives, write back politely, again refusing to pay, and explaining why you were unable to buy a ticket before travelling.
This is where the most useful part of the Penalty Fares Rules comes in - Rule 7 (4), which states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make".
The Rules themselves do not define what "no facilities available" means. But in separate guidance on penalty fares ("Penalty Fares Policy") issued by the Department for Transport, it is made quite clear, in clauses 4.2 and 4.11, that passengers must be given "sufficent opportunity" to buy a ticket and that regular queues over three minutes (off-peak) and five minutes (peak) breach the definition of what is "sufficient".
It is not clear whether this definition has any legal force - but if you quote it in your letter back to the train company, you are unlikely to be bothered again.
The Penalty Fares Policy also tells companies to "use discretion" towards the elderly, pregnant women, people who have enough money to buy a ticket "but not in the form needed to use the [ticket] machine" and "all passengers when the train service is severely disrupted". Once again, if you can truthfully quote any of these, you are unlikely to be bothered.

9 Remember: penalty fares are a civil, not a criminal-matter.
Train companies often scare people into paying up by threatening prosecution and a criminal record. However, the legislation establishing penalty fares, the Railways Act 1993, section 130, states that apart from failing to give your right name and address, "nothing in this section creates, or authorises the creation of any [criminal] offence". The Penalty Fares Regulations 1994 state that "the recovery of a penalty fare is a civil debt". So even if after reading your letter the company still decides it wants the money, it has to sue you - probably not worthwhile for such a small sum.
Railway companies sometimes threaten people with the main criminal law against fare-dodgers, the Regulation of Railways Act1889. But this says there has to be "intent to avoid payment". You could argue that you haven't intended to avoid payment because you have, in fact, paid the full single fare.

10 But don't abuse the system.
The safeguards provided in the law and the regulations are intended for people who want to pay the proper fare but occasionally fall foul of inadequate facilities. If you constantly board trains without buying a ticket, or if you lie to train company staff, this could be construed as intent to avoid payment and the chances of criminal prosecution will rise.



Hope this helps

Livingthedream

dinoman88 wrote: »

GOOGLE 10 ways to avoid penalty fares

thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23731140-fare-dodgers.do

If your trying to invoke these points, then most probably you haven't got a valid ticket. So as you try and argue the point with the Revenue protection officer, he will put away his Penalty fare pad and reach for his MG11 pad then hand this to his prosecutions dept.

So a £25 penalty fare now becomes a more serious Bylaw 18.1 offence (Strict Liability of Failure to produce a valid ticket)

I read on another thread that you said 'use common sense and Research' well I will point to this forum for people to do their own research.

popadom

kevin123 wrote: »

I did not receive a penalty ticket. Apparantly they have 2 routes.

They give you an on the sport penalty fine which you can contest within 21 days or pay.

or

Take your details and forward it to thier prosecution department.

!

If they argue you will give fake details for option one- Then how do they track you down for option 2-based on cctv?