aviva - reattribution offer

peterbaker

catie911, am I right in thinking you have an 'underperforming' With Profits endowment policy with Aviva? And that's the policy which is your ticket to a 'vote' in this sordid bribery business?

If so, your case pretty much takes the biscuit. With Profits has always been a black art - very untransparent, but originally always very low risk because the With Profits fund was the MAIN thing that companies like Norwich Union sold and upon which the reputation of the life assurance division rested. They invested real talent in managing the funds in an agreeably conservative manner.

Then successive managements of the companies involved lost the plot in the face of competition, eventually going completely off the rails. The With Profits funds were still onboard. Some of these companies started playing stupid "our salesorce is bigger than your salesforce" type games and inevitably dropping standards and then busting promises left right and centre. Very much like the entry of lo-co airlines causing traditional players like BA to create entities like Go and then dump the idea, and eventually to end up in a mess whilst some miscreant cornered their European market.

Now, amongst the debris and body parts of the With Profits funds which companies like Aviva have bulldozed into a heap after merging a number of the UK's leading providers of WP products, allowing them to be dragged through the storms of endowment and pensions 'misselling', and out the other side in total disarray, they have now got their greedy eyes on all the vicerated guts of those With Profits funds. They were supposed to protect your funds, but they now treat it as so much offal on their slab. That's how they want you to view it, but actually there is still prime value in those funds. They've just told you that it doesn't seem to belong to anyone they know, and even if it does, well its definitely not yours. But if you agree that lookng the other way while they grab it is a fair thing to do in these times, then they'll give you something. For goodness sakes, they haven't even told you how much! I have seen 419 scam proposals daily in my spam box which look a more convincing proposition than Aviva's! The value they have identified and want to remove now for the benefit of their shareholders is actually 90% yours and mine and it should have been used to make up your endowment shortfall without ever worrying you about it. That was how it would have worked under the original promise of 'With Profits' -i.e. with smoothing of ups and downs and steady growth according to the original sales illustration not some subsequent bald 4% or 6% or 8% of nothing after they have deliberately driven it into the buffers.

I say just stick it to them. Don't 'vote', just write to them and say thanks for their retribution gumpf but would they please mind keeping their eye on the original ball because you hold them directly responsible for manipulating their funds in recent years in such a way as to have caused your shortfall, and you demand that it be rectified. It might not achieve much right now, but it might feel good.

I have always been of the opinion that in the grand scheme of things, there was no misselling of endowments to speak of, just broken promises by the managements and boards of the companies which employed hoards of sales people to sell the endowment promises that their employers subsequent reneged on. Those hoards are mostly long gone and working in other industries. They eventually became totally expendable. I heard that by the mid 1990s, one of the big names in the business at that time had already got through 250,000 such 'employees' - mostly Tax Class D 'self-employed' (sic) - but at any rate this was the total number of people they had got through as members of their 'salesforce' in less than ten years of hectic market presence. They were what they were trained to be for the short period most of them were on the sales commission roll, nothing more or less. The first thing that was suggested to them once they were onboard was that they should sell policies to their relatives friends and neighbours. The second suggestion they were invited to consider after perhaps some mild 'success' was that they could recruit their relatives friends and neighbours. They represented exactly their company's will, they often burned out fast and most disappeared. They were not to blame for the subsequent reneging, but they are nevertheless the ones their former employers do not hesitate to badmouth.

I'm not certainly not going to "vote" as Aviva put it.

Basically it's not a vote at all, it's a signature that they want from you, confirming agreement to a bribe. I said it to AXA some years ago when they did it to me, and I say it again to Aviva - they can go swivel on it.

I'm doing nothing until I am good and ready. I am heartily sick of being told by the crooks that run significant parts of our financial services industry that they want me to agree to some tens of pages or even hundreds of pages of change to my long term contracts (if you include the guff that the Policyholder Advocate has released on the subject of this one), and that I must now read a bunch of cra*ppy new smallprint specially prepared by their lawyers, then get myself an IFA to interpret it, and finally urgently agree to new option A, B or C dreamed up by them and some pseudo quasi establishment 'worthies' or 'hangers-on' who lend their credentials for money. As far as I am concerned they are all acting against FSA rules, whether the bombed-out FSA dares confirm it or not, and as I have said before, if Aviva mess up my pension policy by the time I want to use it or transfer it then I shall certainly stick it to them myself and spill what beans I know of within this nasty little business.

When I wrote this last night I was thinking "Toe rags!" - was that too strong?

imellor

I only have about 7 years to go on my endowment and have been offered about £800. My understanding from reading this thread is as follows:

I am not likely to get another offer within 7 years, so I am advised to take the money.
Other than waiving my right to any future reattribution payments, no other aspect of my policy will change.

It would therefore seem sensible to take the money.

One thing is nagging at me though, why are Aviva pestering me to sign? They have sent me countless reminders, telephoned me and also moved the closing date. Why so much pressure, what is in it for them?

Ian

dunstonh

One thing is nagging at me though, why are Aviva pestering me to sign?

They are not pestering you. They have a duty to let you know and issue a number of chasers to non responders.

Why so much pressure

Because after the closing date, there will still be some who complain or even take action against Aviva for not letting them know their options. The chasing forms part of the audit trail to prove they did their best.

what is in it for them?

Nothing. They have enough already to see through the transaction to suit them. Its now just about protecting their backsides.

kobi_3

One thing I haven't figured out yet - how much is the 'special distribution' worth. If i knew how much the bonuses this year and the next 2 years were worth, it would give context to giving up my rights to future bonuses for £400. does anyone have any idea?

dunstonh

kobi wrote: »

One thing I haven't figured out yet - how much is the 'special distribution' worth. If i knew how much the bonuses this year and the next 2 years were worth, it would give context to giving up my rights to future bonuses for £400. does anyone have any idea?

You are not giving up future daily or final bonuses. You are giving up future special bonuses.

kobi_3

dunstonh wrote: »

You are not giving up future daily or final bonuses. You are giving up future special bonuses.

Hi Dunstonh. I get that, but what is the worth of the special bonuses this time around (over the next 3 yrs)? If Aviva are offering £400 now, what would I not be getting in 10+ years time (if this ever happens again). Obviously thats not a question that anyone can answer, but the value of the current special bonuses would be a guide.

dunstonh

Hi Dunstonh. I get that, but what is the worth of the special bonuses this time around (over the next 3 yrs)?

Apart from the recent special bonus, its been around 20 years since there were any before that. So, they dont come along often.

John_Olivier

dunstonh wrote: »

Apart from the recent special bonus, its been around 20 years since there were any before that. So, they dont come along often.

You seem very supportive. Surely the reatribution is simply a way of allowing Aviva/Norwich Union to use money they currently cannot legally use to support their business rather using it to bolster the terribly performing endowment policy they sold me back in 1996?:o

Kind regards,
John

dunstonh

rather using it to bolster the terribly performing endowment policy they sold me back in 1996?:o

So you think the performance has nothing to do with the fact that we have had one of the worst 10 year periods for investments for generations?

Do you work for Aviva Dunstonh?

Dont be so pathetic.

SavvyBoy

Aviva have offered me £620, I have an endowment that matures in 10 years, I am not going to agree as I fundamentally believe they are being bit naughty here.
If only 50% of the orphan state is going to policy holders instead of 90% it kind of makes a mockery of the intrinsic worth of my policy as such any agreement to acquiesce in this instance seems very short term.
I have followed this board for some time and value the input of all posters (some more than others) and would like to thank Dunston for his input but I am still convinced this offer is NOT a good deal for me. I am confused why the offer was extended and this makes me nervous, I can already picture the board and shareholders salivating at the prospect of getting their mitts on the cash mountain that is not theirs(nor is it mine....yet, but I am entitled to it more than they are)