Why Do ebay Force us To Refund But Don't Refund Themselves?

trevormax

All this talk about T&C's remind me of another thread here on MSE. Some of you may have seen it, the GC's PC's thread here http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1434775

The T&C's there are very unfair and if they went in front of a court I doubt anyone would say "you agreed to the T&C's so tough".

cyril82

MilkyJoe wrote: »

At a time when banks are being fought for all the unfair fees and whatnot, I'm not sure why people are defending eBay and PayPal and their T&Cs as much as they are.
Especially considering the involvement this site has regarding fighting the banks.

thanks MilkyJoe, i thought the same but was starting to think maybe i was getting confused and these were not the consumer forums i thought i was signing up to....:rolleyes:

The fact is, according to uk law if you sell by auction, be you a business or not, you do not have to accept returns. The laws about auctions include online auctions, and even distance selling regs don't over rule this, in fact they confirm it..... http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/regulation-exceptions

Yet ebay and paypal force people to refund on auction sales, and because ebay don't refund their fees on the auction sales they force you to refund, you stand to lose not only the cost of postage but the fees as well. Surely since they are over ruling your legal right not to refund you could easily claim this money back, probably just with the threat of the small claims court, but definitely if you issue a claim.
But i reckon, that in these circumstances you may be able to claim back the sale price of the item as a loss since in your eyes, and the eyes of the law the sale was final and the money yours, until ebay stepped in and took it back.

If i'm right this could mean alot of people were entitled to hundreds, if not thousands back from ebay.
I have not sold in volume on ebay for a couple of years but if i am right, and could still claim back for auction sales that ebay/paypal made me refund, (all my sales were auctions) i would be entitled to thousands back. I had a 14 day returns policy even though i was entitled not to accept returns (i didn't know at the time, i was just following ebay advice) and i would often get people demanding refunds on non faulty items after the 14 day timeframe, (68 days was the longest) and i would refuse, only for paypal to over rule.

I'm not saying at this point we all should start trying to claim, and i'm not saying i would do it at this point, but what do others think, could we be entitled to claim the money back?

or could we at least stop future removal of our legal rights by ebay?

I just don't see why we should be left out of pocket on refunds we are not obliged to offer but forced to by ebay, Especially when they are not giving the fee money back on these forced refunds.

MilkyJoe

The banks could say (and probably did) that people accepted the T&Cs and they didn't have to use them if they weren't happy.

MilkyJoe

But the law says (according to Cyril's post) that "if you sell by auction"...
eBay may not be a traditional auction site (they offer other selling formats, unlike traditional auction sites), but the auctions are still auctions.

MilkyJoe

I didn't say eBay were an auction site, just that the auctions were auctions.
If HMV (for example) chose to auction some stuff on their site, it doesn't mean they're an auction site, but they would be auctions.
I have no idea if they would be bound by auction laws (or if eBay are), but I don't see why not.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

Thats an incorrect asumption. Ebay is NOT classed as an an auction, and they don't have an auctioneer. (and I really cannot be bothered to explain why and to point to specific UK laws as to why your assumption is incorrect)

If you want to try to prove your point, go ahead, as the conclusion you'll come to is that your assumption is wrong.

you raise an interesting point, if indeed it is correct, but, without any evidence to support what you say, and in light of the Office of fair trading publication that i provided a link to, and the fact that ebay sales that are not buy it now's are auctions by definition, (i.e. sale by bidding)
We can only consider what you say to be wrong, as anything sold by bidding, is an auction, see below for the dictionary's definition of what is an auction, and note the lack of requirement for "an auctioneer",


auction

auction [!wksh'n]
n
1.
or (plural auctions) sale by bidding: a sale of goods or property at which intending buyers bid against one another for individual items, each of which is sold to the bidder offering the highest price
· an Internet auction
2.
bridge bidding: in a game of bridge, the bidding phase during which players contract to win a specific number of tricks if a specific suit is trumps

vti (3rd person present singular auctions, present participle auctioning, past and past participle auctioned)
sell things by auction: to sell goods to the highest bidder



We see a lot of people posting in these forums to say, "what you say is wrong, but i cant prove it, or i can't be bothered to prove it" I can only take it that what you say is wrong.

Auctions are auctions, and ebay sales listed as auctions DO count as auctioned goods in the legal sense, unless anyone can prove otherwise.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

Care to point out on EBAY where they say they are an auction, and who is the auctioneer. I've even posted you a nice little court case where EBAY stated they were NOT an Auctioneer. (but don't let that sway you)



So, care to prove your point, as I know you are wrong. You have NO proof whatsoever, and can't even provide any, that state ebay are an auctioneer. Infact, ebay themselves do everything possible in there T&Cs to state they are NOT an auctioneer.

http://www.out-law.com/page-8743

"The company said that the regulations should not apply because it is not an auction house, just a facilitator. "EBay has invented a new way of buying and selling, which has been adopted by 10 million French people, and which is not at all the same as that of auction houses," said a company statement."

Obviously the fact that EBAY themselves say in court they're not an auctioneer should not let you be swayed in your opinion.

http://www.webuser.co.uk/news/news.php?id=283109

There are also lots of laws concerning auctions which do NOT apply to ebay sales. Strange that, its as if they were not an auctioneer.

Hmmm, The link you provide relates to ebay FRANCE and the strict laws which govern FRENCH auction houses, and ebay trying to justify operating without an auctioneers license in FRANCE. I'm sure i don't need to tell you that we are not governed by French law, and so anything to do with French legislation is not really relevant. Do you have any UK legislation that proves ebay sales are not classed as auctions?

Also i think you are missing one point, ebay's argument in France was not that sale by bidding on their site did not constitute auctioning, but that they were not the auctioneer, who they deem to be the auctioneer is not clear, perhaps the seller? but still, the sale by bidding is an auction.

The UK legislation, which is the only one with any relevance to this discussion, states, Sales by auction, including internet auctions, are exempt from mandatory returns, not sale by auction house, or sale by auctioneer. So therefore if you sell by bidding, according to UK law you are not required to accept returns and are quite entitled to consider all sales final.

There are many laws from other countries that contradict our laws, but on these shores it is only our law that matters, so your FRENCH example holds no weight, sorry.

cyril82

dontdoit wrote: »

And you have yet again FAILED to show EBAY (Even though they themselves state they are a venue) are an auction.

Why don't you actually write to them, a nice email will do, and ask ebay. See what they say.

Same case held in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8064066.stm

There is little point in this, you have still FAILED to show on EBAYs site where they state they are an auction. I asked you to do this, you FAILED TO DO SO.

Care to say what you feel this statement means

"You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, our sites are a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as stores, shops, fixed price formats and auction-style formats."

and how you get that to even suggest ebay is an auction. D

o you even know what a venue is in this context. Obviously its something else you will just brush aside.

I find it strange that NOWHERE on EBAYS site they suggest they are an auction (infact you just have to look at the wording "auction-style" , not auction. Seems a strange turn of phrase there.

As this is pointless, as you seem to be so set in your incorrect stance, theres no point in going on.

EMAIL EBAY, ASK THEM (although I doubt you'll beleive them as they're based in LUXEMBOURG, and the email will come from Dublin)

The link you provide is the second that relates to counterfeit goods being sold on ebay, that is not what we are discussing here.

Also, what you mean by "ebay is not an auction" is unclear, I think you mean ebay is not an auction House or Auctioneer, that may be so, i don't dispute it, but the sale on their site of goods by bidding still constitute an auction sale, as confirmed in your own post quoting ebay,

dontdoit wrote: »

"You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, our sites are a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as stores, shops, fixed price formats and auction-style formats.")

So what ebay say is they are venue to allow all different sales, including Auctions that's fine, but that does not change the fact that the auction sales they allow on their "venue" are in turn governed by UK law pertaining to auction sales, regardless of who was the auctioneer, i am yet to read any legislation that is concerned with distinguishing exactly who was the auctioneer before determining that a sale was an auction, do you have any examples?

in turn if ebay claim only to be a "venue" with no liability to buyers, sellers, or brand owners, how do they justify appointing themselves judge and jury over who gets a refund and who does not? Surely as a "venue only" they should not get involved?

And regardless of their legal status, Be it "venue" "broker" Or "auctioneer" What right do they have to remove a sellers legal rights?

It seems to me that ebay want to claim they are merely "a venue" where buyers and sellers come together and are there for not liable when fakes are sold on their site, but then want to claim they are in charge of the auction/sale and can refund buyers at their discretion when it suits

bluejake

dontdoit wrote: »

And you have yet again FAILED to show EBAY (Even though they themselves state they are a venue) are an auction.

Why don't you actually write to them, a nice email will do, and ask ebay. See what they say.

Same case held in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8064066.stm

There is little point in this, you have still FAILED to show on EBAYs site where they state they are an auction. I asked you to do this, you FAILED TO DO SO.

Care to say what you feel this statement means

"You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, our sites are a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as stores, shops, fixed price formats and auction-style formats."

and how you get that to even suggest ebay is an auction. D

o you even know what a venue is in this context. Obviously its something else you will just brush aside.

I find it strange that NOWHERE on EBAYS site they suggest they are an auction (infact you just have to look at the wording "auction-style" , not auction. Seems a strange turn of phrase there.

As this is pointless, as you seem to be so set in your incorrect stance, theres no point in going on.

EMAIL EBAY, ASK THEM (although I doubt you'll beleive them as they're based in LUXEMBOURG, and the email will come from Dublin)

Once again you completely miss the point. It is not ebay who decides if the sales on their site are auctions or not. It is what UK law states that matters. Just stating something on your website does not grant you an exemption from the law of the land.

And you provide a link to a completely irrelevant court case which merely confirms that you don't know what you are taking about.

Similarly, we do not automatically agree to all terms and conditions when do business with a company. Just because a company states something in the small print (or even the LARGE print) does not make it so.

Consumer sites like this and others and individuals can make a difference and change the way businesses are operating. For example, the recent changes to bank unauthorised overdraft charges.

I appreciate it is useful if someone with knowledge of the law points out during a discussion that a particular course of action is unlikely to succeed and then explain why. But people clearly without any knowledge or understanding of how law works just endlessly stating we should accept whatever companies tell us is unhelpful.

To go back to my example the banks said their unauthorised overdraft charges were lawful and as posters above 'helpfully' state people had the choice to accept them or not use a bank. However, some people and some consumer activists and sites like this refused to accept that and the banks have been forced to change their practices.

trevormax

dontdoit wrote: »

And you have yet again FAILED to show EBAY (Even though they themselves state they are a venue) are an auction.

Why don't you actually write to them, a nice email will do, and ask ebay. See what they say.

Same case held in the UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8064066.stm

There is little point in this, you have still FAILED to show on EBAYs site where they state they are an auction. I asked you to do this, you FAILED TO DO SO.

Care to say what you feel this statement means

"You acknowledge that we are not a traditional auctioneer. Instead, our sites are a venue to allow anyone to offer, sell, and buy just about anything, at anytime, from anywhere, in a variety of pricing formats and locations, such as stores, shops, fixed price formats and auction-style formats."

and how you get that to even suggest ebay is an auction. D

o you even know what a venue is in this context. Obviously its something else you will just brush aside.

I find it strange that NOWHERE on EBAYS site they suggest they are an auction (infact you just have to look at the wording "auction-style" , not auction. Seems a strange turn of phrase there.

As this is pointless, as you seem to be so set in your incorrect stance, theres no point in going on.

EMAIL EBAY, ASK THEM (although I doubt you'll beleive them as they're based in LUXEMBOURG, and the email will come from Dublin)

Cyril82's argument here is not that Ebay are an auction site by definition. The argument here is that people ARE selling stuff on ebay in auctions which is clearly what is happening (as shown by Cyril's previous post defining what the word "auction").

I believe Cyril is trying to argue that being able to prove that an item is sold in an auction type sale means the seller is not required to take returns (if of course that is the case with UK law)