Why Do ebay Force us To Refund But Don't Refund Themselves?

cyril82

Something occurred to me recently, during a discussion on another thread.

The basis of the thread in question was that paypal and ebay were forcing a private seller to refund a buyer. any one who auctions goods is not legally obliged to accept refunds, but paypal set debt collectors onto him for the funds.

What i find strange is, why do ebay think it is acceptable to force sellers on their website (it's in their policy, it's enforced by their subsidiary Paypal) to accept returns and issue refunds even where they are not legally obliged to do so, yet when you do, they refuse to return your listing and final value fees for the refunded transaction??

Smacks to me of an unfair contract, contrary to unfair contract legislation, such as the unfair terms in consumer contracts act 1999 and the unfair contract terms act 1977.

i bet my bottom dollar anyone who was forced to refund, even if you accepted the decision (it wasn't like you had a choice anyway) on an item that was auctioned could reclaim the listing & final value fees plus the amount paypal/ebay refunded from ebay, after all, it appears they are binding you to a term in the contract but not binding themselves and limiting your legal right to not accept returns, According to M.O.J. guidance on what is an unfair contract term, this fits the bill,

What kinds of terms are likely to be unfair?
Terms that allow traders to:

• Seriously exclude or limit their legal obligations to you
• Seriously exclude or limit your legal rights - (Ebay limit your legal right not to accept returns)
• Keep all of your deposit / payments when you cancel - (this could be interpreted as keeping all your fees when the sale is cancelled, espeacially if they force you to cancell it)
• Provide no service to you whilst still binding you to the contract
• Set fixed penalties for you if you cancel
• Cancel without notice
• Set excessive notice periods for you to cancel
• Bind you to a hidden term
• Vary the terms without consulting you and without a valid reason
• Change what he supplies without a valid reason.
• Increase the price of the product without allowing you the right to cancel
• Be the sole judge of what a contract term means
• Bind you to the contract without binding him (you have to refund - ebay don't)
• Restrict your right to take legal action



What do people think? worth considering? Could we be reclaiming money from ebay for forced refunds?... should we be reclaiming money from ebay for forced refunds? ....Or should we just accept their terms, even it does cost us money and they are unfair?......And possibly unlawful......

thePS3man

if you dont like ebay nd paypal then dont use it.

simples innit.

everyone whinges about paypal and ebay and they threten legal action and loads of stuff but at the end of the day you signed up to their terms ad conditions. the email i got this afternoon says that if i dont like the amended usre agreement then i can close my account.

and you know what, i'll just go with the flow there is more to life than piontless arguing over it. lifes too short.

cyril82

thePS3man wrote: »

if you dont like ebay nd paypal then dont use it.

simples innit.

everyone whinges about paypal and ebay and they threten legal action and loads of stuff but at the end of the day you signed up to their terms ad conditions. the email i got this afternoon says that if i dont like the amended usre agreement then i can close my account.

and you know what, i'll just go with the flow there is more to life than piontless arguing over it. lifes too short.

thanks for the post. So you clearly are of the view, let them get on with it, we signed the T&C's so we should not whine about it, that's fair enough.

But forgetting the legal argument as to whether or not it's fair and/or acceptable, what do you think of ebay not giving back the fees when you refund?

It is worth noting that Amazon have a strict returns policy but they do refund the fees if you honour that returns policy and issue a refund, should ebay not be doing the same?

Brooker_Dave

cyril82 wrote: »

It is worth noting that Amazon have a strict returns policy but they do refund the fees if you honour that returns policy and issue a refund, should ebay not be doing the same?

Amazon's business is booming, ebay's is in decline.

People prefer to deal with an honest company...

cyril82

Brooker_Dave wrote: »

Amazon's business is booming, ebay's is in decline.

People prefer to deal with an honest company...

There could be some truth in this, i have always found Amazon to be very strict but equally as fair.

They have for as long as i have used them had real customer service and technical advisors who are always very helpful. Puts ebay's automated system and "we don't have a customer service phone number because we don't want to know" attitude to shame. Ebay has been very slow to catch on that a little customer service goes a long way.

Also are sellers really "just whining" when we complain about the service we receive? no one seems to have a problem with buyers complaining and claiming refunds even where they are not entitled to them.

Sellers are ebay's paying customers, their profit comes from us, yet they treat us with contempt, are we not within our rights to demand better service for our money??

mikey72

cyril82 wrote: »

There could be some truth in this, i have always found Amazon to be very strict but equally as fair.

They have for as long as i have used them had real customer service and technical advisors who are always very helpful. Puts ebay's automated system and "we don't have a customer service phone number because we don't want to know" attitude to shame. Ebay has been very slow to catch on that a little customer service goes a long way.

Also are sellers really "just whining" when we complain about the service we receive? no one seems to have a problem with buyers complaining and claiming refunds even where they are not entitled to them.

Sellers are ebay's paying customers, their profit comes from us, yet they treat us with contempt, are we not within our rights to demand better service for our money??

You can demand it, but as shareholders demand higher profits, and higher dividends, who do you think will win?

fishingcinema

I have to say i agree with you
i was reading the other paypal thread last night and did not get to put a reply before it was closed

i had a major paypal problem back last year and could have done with knowing you

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1176151&highlight=

basicaly i had a three week headache when paypal decided to freeze my account with £600 pluss a £100 payment i had made untill i was varified
so i did what they asked sent several emails and made several calls then got an email to say i was too much of a risk and they were closing my account, yet when i phoned paypal i was told my account was not cosed go figure paypal just telling you what you want to hear to get you off the phone, then i was told they were keeping my funds for 180 days well that was it:mad: i was not going to roll over and take advice of well you agreed to the terms and conditions when you signed up at the end of the day they had seen my passport and other supporting documents to varify me

after ripping into there own terms and conditions and emaling them with a threat of release my money or get a court summons within 72hrs hey presto my money was mine again

i read somewhere that at one point paypal had fan accumulated freeze on £9 billion pounds of peoples money and people said they dont earn off the interest on this ?(yes im going to win the lottery jackpot tommorow night)

yes i stil use ebay and paypal in my opinoin ebay and paypal are far too big for there own boots and make up there rules as and when they feel and to benefit them not sellers or buyers

like i said i wish i knew of you when i had my issue cyril82 prehaps i would have got it resolved sooner and you will certianly not be added to my blocked list

cyril82 wrote: »

Something occurred to me recently, during a discussion (to put it politely) on another thread.

The basis of the thread in question was that paypal and ebay were forcing a private seller to refund a buyer. any one who auctions goods is not legally obliged to accept refunds, but paypal set debt collectors onto him for the funds.

What i find strange is, why do ebay think it is acceptable to force sellers on their website (it's in their policy, it's enforced by their subsidiary Paypal) to accept returns and issue refunds even where they are not legally obliged to do so, yet when you do, they refuse to return your listing and final value fees for the refunded transaction??

Smacks to me of an unfair contract, contrary to unfair contract legislation, such as the unfair terms in consumer contracts act 1999 and the unfair contract terms act 1977.

i bet my bottom dollar anyone who was forced to refund, even if you accepted the decision (it wasn't like you had a choice anyway) on an item that was auctioned could reclaim the listing & final value fees plus the amount paypal/ebay refunded from ebay, after all, it appears they are binding you to a term in the contract but not binding themselves and limiting your legal right to not accept returns, According to M.O.J. guidance on what is an unfair contract term, this fits the bill,

What kinds of terms are likely to be unfair?
Terms that allow traders to:

• Seriously exclude or limit their legal obligations to you
• Seriously exclude or limit your legal rights - (Ebay limit your legal right not to accept returns)
• Keep all of your deposit / payments when you cancel - (this could be interpreted as keeping all your fees when the sale is cancelled, espeacially if they force you to cancell it)
• Provide no service to you whilst still binding you to the contract
• Set fixed penalties for you if you cancel
• Cancel without notice
• Set excessive notice periods for you to cancel
• Bind you to a hidden term
• Vary the terms without consulting you and without a valid reason
• Change what he supplies without a valid reason.
• Increase the price of the product without allowing you the right to cancel
• Be the sole judge of what a contract term means
• Bind you to the contract without binding him (you have to refund - ebay don't)
• Restrict your right to take legal action



What do people think? worth considering? Could we be reclaiming money from ebay for forced refunds?... should we be reclaiming money from ebay for forced refunds? ....Or should we just accept their terms, even it does cost us money and they are unfair?......And possibly unlawful......

cyril82

mikey72 wrote: »

You can demand it, but as shareholders demand higher profits, and higher dividends, who do you think will win?

well at present the ebay shareholders are not winning by any sense of the word, ebays share price went a long way south a long time ago and it seems since then someone took their compass because no matter what they do they just cant seem to find north again.

perhaps they are just looking in the wrong place......I.e. looking after buyers too much while ignoring the people that actually pay them, the sellers.....

cyril82

fishingcinema wrote: »

I have to say i agree with you
i was reading the other paypal thread last night and did not get to put a reply before it was closed

i had a major paypal problem back last year and could have done with knowing you

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1176151&highlight=

basicaly i had a three week headache when paypal decided to freeze my account with £600 pluss a £100 payment i had made untill i was varified
so i did what they asked sent several emails and made several calls then got an email to say i was too much of a risk and they were closing my account, yet when i phoned paypal i was told my account was not cosed go figure paypal just telling you what you want to hear to get you off the phone, then i was told they were keeping my funds for 180 days well that was it:mad: i was not going to roll over and take advice of well you agreed to the terms and conditions when you signed up at the end of the day they had seen my passport and other supporting documents to varify me

after ripping into there own terms and conditions and emaling them with a threat of release my money or get a court summons within 72hrs hey presto my money was mine again

i read somewhere that at one point paypal had fan accumulated freeze on £9 billion pounds of peoples money and people said they dont earn off the interest on this ?(yes im going to win the lottery jackpot tommorow night)

yes i stil use ebay and paypal in my opinoin ebay and paypal are far too big for there own boots and make up there rules as and when they feel and to benefit them not sellers or buyers

like i said i wish i knew of you when i had my issue cyril82 prehaps i would have got it resolved sooner and you will certianly not be added to my blocked list

What alot of people fail to realise is that in the small claims court alot of it comes down to common sense, if paypal ever went in front of a court, and as yet i have not heard of one case except those involving fraud that they have, but if they did go in front of a court to defend holding a customers money who had done all the verification they would need more than "we are doing it because our terms say we can" as a defence. They know this which is why if you know what to say to them and how to go about it you can remove any account freeze, paypal have no legal right to freeze money, they can only do it if you let them, so don't let them...

Touching on what you mentioned about reports of paypal at one time having £9 Billion pounds on freeze at one time, i once read a report in America where a financial expert was claiming he believed paypal were freezing accounts routinely in order to filter the money through high interest bank accounts which paid out millions in interest a year based on the average balance, he said if proven that would amount to taking illegal loans from customers.

It all sounds a bit conspiracy theorist when you say it but apparently when ebay bought paypal they were hit with so many legal cases in America that by year end, after paying their attorneys they were posting a loss, and many financial observers allege this is where paypals routine account freezes stem from, they had to get creative in ways of making money to stay afloat, now i think the only reason for doing it is because it is a cash cow they can not bear to slaughter.

If it is not true that paypal have a hidden agenda for their routine account freezes then it begs the question, why do so many people get the same account limitation, asking for the same docs, then when submitted get the same email saying those docs are not good enough, could they fax them, then they wait some more and its either, submit the docs again or sorry, we are keeping the funds for 6 months.

Also, and this is the biggie for me, why do they limit account funds claiming it is a requirement under EU Anti money laundering Legislation when there is in fact no requirement In Eu Money Laundering Legislation for electronic money issuers to freeze funds?? Sounds very dodgy to me, that's why i never leave money in my account now, they can't be trusted.

fishingcinema

again have to agree
when i was having my nightmare i read so many anti paypal formums and some of the storys were awful one lady was accused of running a !!!!!! website and had her funds froze and they basicaly said sign something to admit to it and we will release you funds:eek: i think not

i came up against a brick wall as they dont exactly make it easy to find there uk surrey address do they

most people think that because they are based in luxemburg you can not issue court procedings against them

i may have this the wrong way round but when i was going through it all i came to

for paypal to trade in the uk they need a uk banking licence or equivalent and to get one you need a uk address hence the surrey address so they can be summonsed to court (something along those lines lol)
and most people that dont know the surrey address and presume they are just based in luxemburg as the address shows on paypal just take it

as for the we make no interest on frozen funds im going to get shot down again

as if they make not a penny interest on frozen funds what it sits there in a bank account for 180 days 21 days whatever/however long they decide to freeze it for making nothing please pul the other leg who makes sure or who can prove they dont

i wonder why paypal choose to trade and be based in luxemburx i tell you why because the rules are slacker there they can get away with alot more not for one second would they get away with what they do under uk laws

i would love to see the fall of paypal but lets face it thats not going to happen but i strongly feel they need to be governed by a stricter governing body and have to follow stricter rules then pprehaps we would not see so many horror storys

when i had my problem i even contacted the people who deal with paypal complaints agains paypal in luxemburg again hard to find the details and not that it helped much as by the time they contacted me i had sorted it my self but i cant complain at least they bothered to reply to me

ebay and paypal have a monopoly going at the moment to sell on ebay you must have paypal both owned by the same company but please dont ask ebay for help with paypal as you wont get any diffrent company

i cant say i blame them business wise clever move they get doubble bubble for ebay listing fees, final value fees, paypal receving fees

clever clever

i dont really hate paypal or ebay im just so envious that they make so much sorry scam so much money from people

let the ribbing begin ................................................................

cyril82 wrote: »

What alot of people fail to realise is that in the small claims court alot of it comes down to common sense, if paypal ever went in front of a court, and as yet i have not heard of one case except those involving fraud that they have, but if they did go in front of a court to defend holding a customers money who had done all the verification they would need more than "we are doing it because our terms say we can" as a defence. They know this which is why if you know what to say to them and how to go about it you can remove any account freeze, paypal have no legal right to freeze money, they can only do it if you let them, so don't let them...

Touching on what you mentioned about reports of paypal at one time having £9 Billion pounds on freeze at one time, i once read a report in America where a financial expert was claiming he believed paypal were freezing accounts routinely in order to filter the money through high interest bank accounts which paid out millions in interest a year based on the average balance, he said if proven that would amount to taking illegal loans from customers.

It all sounds a bit conspiracy theorist when you say it but apparently when ebay bought paypal they were hit with so many legal cases in America that by year end, after paying their attorneys they were posting a loss, and many financial observers allege this is where paypals routine account freezes stem from, they had to get creative in ways of making money to stay afloat, now i think the only reason for doing it is because it is a cash cow they can not bear to slaughter.

If it is not true that paypal have a hidden agenda for their routine account freezes then it begs the question, why do so many people get the same account limitation, asking for the same docs, then when submitted get the same email saying those docs are not good enough, could they fax them, then they wait some more and its either, submit the docs again or sorry, we are keeping the funds for 6 months.

Also, and this is the biggie for me, why do they limit account funds claiming it is a requirement under EU Anti money laundering Legislation when there is in fact no requirement In Eu Money Laundering Legislation for electronic money issuers to freeze funds?? Sounds very dodgy to me, that's why i never leave money in my account now, they can't be trusted.

MilkyJoe

At a time when banks are being fought for all the unfair fees and whatnot, I'm not sure why people are defending eBay and PayPal and their T&Cs as much as they are.
Especially considering the involvement this site has regarding fighting the banks.