Partly collapsed sewage drain on neighbours property

TimBuckTeeth

We currently rent our house but may be in a position to buy so would appreciate some advice on a drainage problem.

Our sewage pipe blocked 3 times a couple of years ago, so a CCTV survey was done which showed that the pipe was partially collapsed. The damaged section is on a neighbours property before it runs into an 8 ft deep inspection chamber in their garden into a combined 6" sewer running under their garage to the street.

At the time the landlord said he would pay for the repair, but the section of pipe is under a flower bed and small brick built pond so the neighbours were not keen on having their garden dug up. A loose broken piece of pipe was removed from the pipe and I put a coarse grill in our inspection chamber to break up toilet roll etc.before it went down the pipe. Since then the pipe has not blocked and no work has been done.

I understand that the repair of the pipe is the responsibility of the owner of our house, but the damage to the neighbours garden could add considerably to the cost. They might be unwilling for the repair to be done, but suppose they would be legally required to allow the work to be done if the drain condition got worse. At the time environmental health was mentioned, it is probably wrong to leave a broken sewage pipe - maybe the repair needs to be done now.

Should I get the landlord to repair the pipe before we buy the house, negotiate a £10k discount off the price, or pay for another drain survey to determine more details and see if a glass fibre sleeve repair would be possible. eg : http://www.drainlinesouthern.co.uk/grp_lining.htm

Sorry about the length - thanks in advance for any advice.

myrnahaz

You might not be liable, actually. If your sewer is joined to your neighbours systems before joining the main sewer, then the local water authority might be responsible and will have to take over the maintenence of it. I can't remember the name (I think it's something like 'section 36'), and I couldn't get much sense out of our local authority when I rang about it (we're number 1 of at least 3 neighbours whose sewers are joined), but it certainly exists - and I'm sure that something has been done recently to make the water authorities more liable.
I'll go and google it and see if I can jog my memory.

Edit: Ok, It's called Section 24 and applies to drains that were laid prior to 1937. I'm pretty sure it also relates to joined-up sewers, so it's worth checking before agreeing to fix it yourself.

frogglet

We live in an 18 year old house and there are 3 or four houses that run into a main drain on next doors drive with an inspection chamber, it then runs into the road. A few years ago the drain blocked somewhere between the inspection chamber and the road, the council came and unblocked it and said that it is the responsibility of all the house owners who drain into the drain to pay for any problems with it up to where it meets the main sewer in the road, not just up to the property boundary.

TimBuckTeeth

The house was built in the 70s and the section of pipe affected only serves our house before it enters the shared sewer. I am fairly sure that we would be responsible under drainage law and could possibly be served a legal notice to repair by the council if they became aware of the problem.

A full CCTV survey would be needed, but I am not sure whether I should get the landlord to repair the drain before buying the house. At least we have prior knowledge of a potentially expensive problem that would not be picked up by a normal survey.

usignuolo

We have a similar arrangement in our Victorian house, the pipework for the sewers is at the back of the houses and joins under the boundary wall between us and next door. The merged sewer pipe runs away down under back gardens no one knows where. We had a CCTV put down it when we had our conservatory built, the council inspector came round to see if we could find out where the drain went. Eventually after running the CCTV out around 200 metres under the backgardens along the road behind us, they still could not find the outlet. In the everyone gave up and went home none the wiser.

A lot of us have had problems with blocked sewers round here. When our sewer blocked and started backing up, I contacted the council who said they had no plans of where the pipes run in our neighbourhood and referred me to Thames Water. Thames Water said they had no plans either. They said we are responsible up to the point where the drains join the main sewer in the road. In our case as the drains are not mapped and not on their database, and indeed no one knows where they run, they are not their responsibility.

I have now taken out insurance against it happening again. Have yet to test this.

usignuolo

Just found this on the Water users Consumer Council web site

15 December 2008

PRIVATE SEWERS TRANSFER GOOD NEWS FOR CONSUMERS – BUT AT A PRICE


http://www.ccwater.org.uk/upload/doc/2808_private_sewers.doc

The Consumer Council for Water today, (15 December) welcomed the announcement by Defra that privately-owned sewers and lateral drains will be transferred to sewerage companies in England in April 2011.

Until then, responsibility for private sewers and lateral drains will remain with the owners of the properties they are connected to.

Up to 50% of properties are connected to private sewers, and nearly all properties are connected to privately owned lateral drains. A Sewer usually carries water away from a number of properties; a drain usually carries water away from just one property.

“Some private sewers are used by more than one property, and if something goes wrong it can be difficult for several property owners to either accept their shared responsibility, or work together to fix it.


“The transfer of private sewers will relieve consumers of this burden and will allow water and sewerage companies to integrate private sewers and laterals into the public sewer system and help reduce the risk of flooding.

“Until the switch takes place, in April of 2011, we would encourage homeowners to find out from their sewerage provider if their property is connected to private or public sewers and drains. If the sewers are their responsibility, homeowners should check to see if their buildings insurance covers private sewers and drains. These pipes can be insured; which should help prevent costly repair bills should anything go wrong.”

27col

MY next door neighbour's foul sewer collapsed and he got it done as an insurance claim. The collapsed drain was under the garage of the house next door but one. Obviously they would not allow any excavation of their garage floor, so the new drain was diverted away from the garage. It involved a bit of disturbance to the front garden of the next door but one house, in order to connect into the sewer, but it was all made good later, under the terms of the insurance.

TimBuckTeeth

I don't think I could claim on insurance as it is a pre-existing problem.
Usignuolo thanks for that info, I haven't heard of the transfer to water companies before.
Appeared to be just for England but there seem to be similar plans for Wales also.
If the pipe holds up that long it could be the solution.
I am still a bit wary of being landed with a huge bill for repair. I think a CCTV survey and a quote for repair is the first step before buying the house.

asbokid

£10k sounds like a lot of money.. how long is the stretch of drain that has collapsed, and what sort of pipe is it? is it just bog standard (pardon the pun) four inch salt glaze?

Eight feet sounds very deep.. or is that not the actual depth of the collapsed sewer, but the depth of the inspection chamber?

You could probably hire a mini-digger and driver for £200 a day, and do the job yourself for well under £1000

There is a law called the Access to Neighbouring Land Act 1992 ... It can be used to gain lawful access to another's land for carrying out essential building work. A Court can grant you an Access Order even if your neighbour explicitly refuses access to you. But you are expected to make good the damage, and offer compensation, or a gesture of goodwill for the inconvenience, etc..

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1992/ukpga_19920023_en_1

Obviously it's far preferable to negotiate things outside of the law courts.. Is there anything your neighbour could gain from while your plant is on his site? Does he want a free rockery garden, perhaps... or a pond, or a swimming pool? Or maybe a new patio dug out to dispose of his wife?

Or what about hiring Alan Titchmarsh to give their yard a right royal make-over? (petunias around a water feature, and a helleborus niger crowning it off?).. Maybe call it a garden fete. Invite the whole street and get Charlie Dimmock to declare it open in a leopard-skin leotard. Who could refuse that?

It's surprising how accommodating neighbours can be when they work together..



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TimBuckTeeth

It is just standard 4" ceramic pipe, not sure about the length affected probably just a couple of feet. The inspection chamber in the neighbours is garden is 8ft deep but it appears that our pipe enters about halfway down, but our garden is higher up than theirs so is buried deeper below ours.
Not sure about the costs really, £10k was just a round number, I guess it will be a few thousand. In a previous rented house the old collapsed pitch fibre drain was replaced, at a cost of around 8k. Probably over priced but required the road to be dug up to connect to the main public sewer.

The gardens are fairly small, we are on a hill so access to the road via narrow steps so unlikely to get even a mini digger round the back. If it were a matter of digging on grass then it would not be too bad, but there is a wall between the gardens, established plants and a brick built pond on their side, which will require making good afterwards, so adding to the cost and inconvenience.
We not pushed the matter at the moment as we are renting, so not responsible for maintenance, have no current drainage problems and don't want to inconvenience the neighbours. If we do buy I don't want to be stuck with a complicated and costly problem so trying to find out the best way to proceed. The no-dig repairs seem more suitable in this case, but don't know about the cost. There is a choice between the fibreglass 'sock' type or the dyno-rod in2 plastic pipe system : http://www.dyno.com/in2.htm

FilthyLuka

TimBuckTeeth wrote: »

the section of pipe affected only serves our house before it enters the shared sewer.

If the section of pipe only collects wastewater from your property then the proposed 'takeover' by the water authority (WA) are unlikely to help in this case

The WA are only proposing to take responsibility for sewers.

To be a sewer it must serve more than 1 property. If it only serves a single property it is a drain, I have seen no mention of the WA taking over drains.

There should be a n easement for your drainage to run across the neighbours land, this may have provisions for access and maintenance ( but you won't know this unless you find out from the owner, your landlord)