The recession, benefits, the safety net, and the learning curve

dopester

Max_Headroom wrote: »

Aint that the truth.

Dopester seems to have this wacky idea that if you're fortunate enough to have plenty of equity, but for whatever reason struggling financially, your best move is to take your home and one and only asset, flog it, and gamble with the cash.

A very young 33 indeed...

For me you are gambling more by not selling.

StevieJ

I really struggle to see why it is more expensive to buy now relative to wages than when I first took out a mortgage

andygb

SingleSue wrote: »

Although I have sympathy for your situation, I just cannot see why others would have responsibility for the situation you now find yourself. I am neither an old or young chicken anymore (I am one of those awkward ages where you are not middle aged but then you aren't young either) and find I can just as easily relate to the teens as I can the older generation..maybe because I have had to.

I'm not a social butterfly, never really have been and I have always been seen as a bit of a loner/weird one at work usually because my interests were seen as a little weird for a female (like sports, motorbikes and rock music) but I was always seen as a team player in the work place..far more than those who sat and talked about the latest soap (which bores me to tears) or who went out clubbing together at the weekend and one who would stay extra time to help out a colleague so that he/she could also leave work at a decent time instead of working on her own for ages after everyone else had left.

My colleagues knew that they could depend on me when it came to work but just that our interests were not the same outside of it....it didn't harm our team spirit and in fact, I was always the leader in bringing the team spirit due to my working ethic of we are in this together.

Sue,
I am pleased that you have been able to find a place where you have been treated OK by the younger employees, they do exist, and I am hoping that the place where my wife is working at the moment, will remain a good, balanced, intelligent environment. I think the problem arises when you have a lot of younger people working together, and despite trying to fit in, do the job well, and be approachable, they treat you like a leper.
Unfortunately in a World where image is all important, very shallow issues influence people's behaviour.

dopester

StevieJ wrote: »

I really struggle to see why it is more expensive to buy now relative to wages than when I first took out a mortgage

Wages are under pressure. Pay-freeze, pay-cuts, contractors not having their big-paying contracts renewed, rising unemployment - skills overcapacity in many sectors.

I don't believe you can properly make any decisions about multiple of salary for a mortgage during the deflationary transition.

Max_Headroom_3

dopester wrote: »

For me you are gambling more by not selling.

Then I suggest you read this thread right through carefully again. :rolleyes:

andygb

Dopester,

You are just so full of contradictions. You almost state that it is OK for the younger generation to feel anger at someone of my age, why? I bought a house when I could afford it, at roughly twice our combined salary, but we regard it as a home, to live in, not something which has to be traded in every other year like a used car.
It is not us, the older generation to blame, it is successive governments and the banks, who by the lack of regulation, and the pure greed, fuelled by unrealistic bonuses, allowed people to borrow as much as they liked, thus enabling other greedy people, encouraged by estate agents to falsely inflate property prices.
You chose to ignore part of my reply, where I said that I consider it immoral for young people, who have studied and secured a good job, to still be unable to get on the property ladder.

SingleSue

Don't get me wrong Andy, I was laughed at and treated with mirth due to my differences..and socially ostracised not just by the younger but also the older colleagues but they knew that when it came to work and the knowledge of that work, my application of that knowledge and my dedication to the team that I was one of the better ones.

I never tried to fit in, it would only have made things worse but I did try (in my own little way) to give them an understanding of why I was so different. They probably found my habits just as as annoying as I found theirs.....the latest boy band or lipstick holds about as much interest to me as my liking of rock bands and social equality did for them.

They were the sheeple, the ones who believed the media hype....I was the thinker and a blooming alternative one at that! I was still the outsider though looking in but it didn't worry me, it's good to be different.

You are right though, shallow issues do influence how others think of you and image can be seen to be important and that was one of my biggest bugbears in the workplace...and the source of a lot of our discussions usually led by me in response to one of the generalisations about certain sectors of society from one of them.

dopester

andygb wrote: »

Dopester,

You are just so full of contradictions. (a + a2) You almost state that it is OK for the younger generation to feel anger at someone of my age, why? (b) I bought a house when I could afford it, at roughly twice our combined salary, but we regard it as a home, to live in, not something which has to be traded in every other year like a used car.
(c) It is not us, the older generation to blame, it is successive governments and the banks, who by the lack of regulation, and the pure greed, fuelled by unrealistic bonuses, allowed people to borrow as much as they liked, thus enabling other greedy people, encouraged by estate agents to falsely inflate property prices.
You chose to ignore part of my reply, where I said that I consider it immoral for young people, who have studied and secured a good job, to still be unable to get on the property ladder.

a) The ageism thing... I'm going to do further research on it later, to ascertain if it is becoming more of an issue. In the meantime some thoughts below.

b) Yes. Home to live in. Whoopie do. Fact is it has become an investment vehicle during an incredible bubble, and property values still very much reflect that. Given what we're going in to you might want to consider your options. Also many young people (renters) want a simple home to live in... just look at what they are expected to pay for that simple privilege - or get in to debt for - for many areas of the UK (excluding some of the roughest parts of the UK where fewer good job opportunities exist.)

(c) Agree with you about how it came about... but if you've ever voted Labour, enjoyed watching Kirstie-type shows, been proud of your intelligence for investing in property and proud how much your home has risen, had shares in those who enabled it... you have an element of guilt in it too.

(a2) Not anger as much, but on a scale of who to feel sorry for... when younger people are struggling to stay in jobs, lost their job and looking for new jobs, graduates looking for their first job... pay-cuts.... in negative equity or renting.....

... and there are older people who've enjoyed 3 decades of the longwave of very prosperous economic conditions and opportunity... who own outright, or majority own a home of high value. Well there is no comparison for me.

That thread I linked to with all the out-of-work younger sparkies.. including the one with 2 kids (one of them 9 weeks old) and just canned from his job. Whether he has mortgage and facing NE, or rents...... compared to someone who owns all or most of their own home valued at incredible levels. Imagine how he might be feeling (with no home of his own virtually paid off), compared to your position.

Now this was for the USA.. but prior to that I suspect similar economic conditions in the UK also brought about pension entitement.

Retirement was essentially an invention of the Great Depression. It was meant not to only shore up the private income of the elderly, but to free jobs that were in short supply. The insolvency of government will lead to a radical reworking of retirement programs. Benefits will become more modest, and they will probably be means tested. Indexing will be abolished under deflationary conditions. Remaining barriers to work force participation by the elderly will be dropped.

So I'm guessing that there is a force of ageism which can't be politically-correct magicked away. At the same time government will want jobs for all ages. Ageism not so much an issue when the person brings real value, experience and input to a job for an employer.

It is going to get tough, and many people will feel unfair... but this is what happens when a warped economy is allowed to play out as it did.

Max_Headroom_3

dopester wrote: »

(c) Agree with you about how it came about... but if you've ever voted Labour, enjoyed watching Kirstie-type shows, been proud of your intelligence for investing in property and proud how much your home has risen, had shares in those who enabled it... you have an element of guilt in it too.

So basically Dopester, you believe that anyone who's even thought of their house in any kind of investment terms is basically wrong, and considering a home from a financial aspect rather than simply as a home is a bad thing?

Well that's fair enough, so lets see you stand by your beliefs and give us your view on this chancer who seems absolutely obsessed with what people could be making or losing by viewing their house in purely investment terms.

When I suggest STR, it is like suggesting you cash your winning lottery jackpot ticket.

For me you are gambling more by not selling.

Time over, I'd have bought with a big mortgage earlier on, and allowed HPI to float us to asset value wealth. Continued to save just as hard, and then STR'd, even now, for best of both worlds.

Your entire being and soul in to making your house you love? Forgive me for seeing a home mostly as a place of comfortable shelter, and not something which completes my life. My horizons and values on life are a bit more expansive than that.

STR or STL is still a brilliant opportunity, above the love and entire being going in to a home.

If your home had crashed 80% in value I could somewhat better understand your whine, but you refuse to accept it as realisable gain, prior to the wipe-out in value, and all the other benefits STR could bring.

I was presenting it STR as an opportunity. The STR money could last him out a long time if done carefully, and buy back in at much lower levels.

Yes... "no mortgage," so "no-ties" - no magic equity-gain riches over the years which could be sold and realised...

mewbie_2

If you guys did move in with each other you could leave great notes on the fridge.