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mirry

Does anyone ever burn wood that has nails in it ?
would this be a problem in a wood burner ?

Swipe

mirry wrote: »

Does anyone ever burn wood that has nails in it ?
would this be a problem in a wood burner ?

Yes, I burn wood with nails in regularly.

roaljoho

mirry wrote: »

Does anyone ever burn wood that has nails in it ?
would this be a problem in a wood burner ?

I regularly burn wood with nails in it my woodburner. I use a magnet to easily remove the nails from the ash when I clean it out.

NeverInDebt

Nails are fine as long asthe wood is dry and doesn't contain creosote or paint

A._Badger

hethmar wrote: »

John, when you look up the chimney it should be dull, if you see shiny deposits then you have resin build up.

Badger, there are various grades of stainless steel, to avoid people getting, or choosing to be, confused - avoid smokeless fuel. Im not aware what other installers may recommend to you, but as you say you have been given bad information from them ............ The 904 twin walled liner is said to be perfectly ok for such fuel but as that type of liner has not been around for the full length of its warranty then we await its performance.

Im backing out of this thread now as we are very busy at this time of year - for full information please read the NACE and HETAS websites or google for details.

If you are saying avoid using smokeless fuel in multifuel heaters (and it isn't quite clear precisely what you are saying), I'm afraid that is absolute nonsense.

Most stove manufacturers advise that users avoid bituminous coal and advocate the use of smokeless fuel - many even list the varieties suitable!

Any newcomer to this subject who is confused is strongly advised to go to the Solid Fuel Association's own website. It's at www.solidfuel.co.uk The association offers a lot of material online and if readers get confused (as I did when wrongly advised by an 'expert' installer), they offer a free advisory service.

hethmar

I think you have misunderstood or got confused over the difference between the stove itself and the lining, we were discussing stainless steel linings. I cant see how you could get confused over that, its very clear in the above quote.


Manufacturers will give the impression you could burn old boots on their stoves until you actually have a problem. You are not an experienced liner Mr Badger. And as for the SFA association, lol, nuff said.

A._Badger

hethmar wrote: »

I think you have misunderstood or got confused over the difference between the stove itself and the lining, we were discussing stainless steel linings. I cant see how you could get confused over that, its very clear in the above quote.


Manufacturers will give the impression you could burn old boots on their stoves until you actually have a problem. You are not an experienced liner Mr Badger. And as for the SFA association, lol, nuff said.

No, I'm not at all confused, Hethmar. I was trying to give you a graceful way of sliding out of a gross error, by suggesting it wasn't clear what you had been posting.

Now that is clearly not the case.

You are saying it is not suitable to burn smokeless fuel if your stove has been connected to a stainless steel chimney liner.

If you are right (and I am quite convinced you are wrong) then just about every one of your HETAS registered installers is making a mistake.

The following is from the SFA's document 'Lining old chimneys':

"SOLID FUEL LINER. This is a double skinned liner made from an extremely high quality stainless steel, usually 904L or 316Ti (Titanium) grade. It is smooth on the inside, corrugated on the outside and must be installed the correct way up. It is specifically designed for relining flues for solid fuel and wood. Whilst stainless steel is a very tough material, it is still prone to corrosion due to the acidity of fumes from solid fuel, especially if condensation is present. Its anti corrosion properties are also reduced if heated above 900ºC for more than about 15 minutes, perhaps as the result of a chimney fire.
There is presently no British Standard for solid fuel flexible liners. Building Regulations can be satisfied by referring to the HETAS Approved List or an approval by the CSTB (France), members of the European Union of Agr!ment."

Note the line 'for solid fuel and wood'. The corrosion mentioned is no more a problem with smokeless solid fuels than it is wood. Indeed, it is damp wood that is the real source of trouble, as is widely acknowledged.

Shall we see what NACE says:?

"H. FLEXIBLE METAL LINERS

There are two distinct types of flexible metal flue liners available and it is very important to distinguish between them.

1) Gas flue liner, sometimes know as "Gas flex." A light gauge single skin liner only suitable for closed gas fires and boilers, and for some inset live fuel effect gas fires (consult manufacturers instructions). This type of liner is commonly available in coils at Builders & Plumbers merchants. It must under no circumstances be used for solid fuel or wood burning appliances, or open solid fuel effect gas fires. Readily available sizes are lOOmm (4"), 125mm (5"), and 150mm (6") diameters. The minimum size permitted for closed (glass fronted) gas fires and stoves is 125mm (5") (BS 5440 pt.1.1990 4.1.5).

2) Solid fuel liner. This is a double skinned liner made from an extremely high quality stainless steel, usually 31 6Ti (Titanium) austenitic grade. It is smooth on the inside, corrugated on the outside and must be installed the correct way up. It is specifically designed for relining flues for solid fuel, wood and open gas log/coal effect fires. The same points mentioned in section G 1) regarding corrosion resistance and life expectancy apply to this type of lining. There is at present no British Standard for solid fuel flexible liners. However, the Building Regulations can be satisfied by referring to an approval by the CSTB in Paris, members of the European Union of Agrement.

This type of lining is relatively easy and clean to install. It is usually drawn down the chimney by rope from the top and will pass round most bends without opening up the flue. Support is provided by 'hanging' the lining from a clamp or plate mounted at the top of the chimney. It should also be firmly clamped at the base before forming the connection to the appliance or flue pipe. Unlike rigid pipe, expansion and contraction will be taken up by the flexible construction of the pipe itself. For the gas type of lining, an air space is normally left between the liner and the old flue. However it is a requirement to seal this void at the top and bottom. This can be done with a 'plug' of rockwool or glass fibre insulation quilt, or a register plate of fireproof board or sheet metal can be used.

The solid fuel liner can also be left with an airspace as insulation. This may be satisfactory for open fires with relatively high flue gas speeds and temperatures, which will reduce the likelihood of condensation. A better solution is to back fill round the liner with a loose fireproof insulation material such as Perlite, Vermiculite or Leca granules. Some systems offer an insulation 'wrap', well suited to the large voids found in inglenook situations where back filling would be impractical. (Fibreglass insulation should not be used..."

I think it's pretty clear that stainless steel is, as NACE, says: "...specifically designed for relining flues for solid fuel, wood and open gas log/coal effect fires"..

And didn't you, yourself, recommend NACE as a source of information?

What do you think the SFA and NACE mean by 'solid fuel' given that bituminous housecoal is specifically warned against?

As for the reliability of some of the information given by installers, in the light of the above, I rest my case.

I strongly urge anyone considering installing a stove to get several opinions on whether and how to line a chimney (let alone what stove to buy!) and, ideally, go to one of the organisations who set the specifications. That's the only way, as far as I can see, of getting a reliable opinion.

hethmar

Badger, you are choosing random bits of information to suit your confused argument..

You have chosen not to understand the facts.

In the above info you quote:

"Whilst stainless steel is a very tough material, it is still prone to corrosion due to the acidity of fumes from solid fuel, especially if condensation is present."

In your above quote at 2) there is reference to "points mentioned above in section G1" which say:

"316 Stainless steel is a very tough material, but it is still prone to corrosion from the fumes given off by certain types of processed solid fuel. Its anticorrosion properties are also reduced if it is heated above 900°C for more than about 15 minutes"

I now rest my case too. You have chosen bits and pieces to support your own unskilled opinion. You can read every manual in the world but surely you have reached an age where you appreciate its the guys doing the work who know the facts, not the committees setting up the manuals but never getting their own hands dirty - I was trying to givepersonal advice to those considering lining their chimneys - advice from experience of over 25 years and many many thousands of successful linings.


I could give you dozens of quotes from people who actually do this work, and you can find them youself on a google search, which will tell you the same thing. The first example to come up on a google search:

"smokeless coal gives off all sorts of nasties which can eat through stainless steel liners within a few years. There are many types of manufactured coal on the market, some seem to eat through liners quicker than others but the worst is natural deep mine anthracite. I've seen it give 1mm 316 stainless steel rigid pipes pin holes within 3 years! "


Whilst I had believed you had been subject to cowboys when you complained, I now feel quite sorry for the poor sods who you asked for quotes. If you choose to be confused, or you just arent able to understand advice, so be it.
I cant even remember what you did with your chimney now, if you decided not to line, then I would urge you to have it swept very frequently.

A._Badger

A little consistency might help your case, Hethmar.

If you recall, it was I who originally cast doubt on the value of HETAS and you who were defending it. Now you seem to have switched sides and are advocating practical experience as opposed to published documentation.

As it happens, my chimney is lined and was done so on the advice of a pracical chimney sweep (whose opinion was later backed by the chimney consultant at the SFA) in direct contradiction to the advice on liner size given by one of these wonderful HETAS installers.

As for 'snatching random quotes' your second comes from a post on a thread on the green building forum.

Very authoritative.

As I've said before, if you are so sure you it is wrong to fit a stainless steel liner when burning smokeless fuel, why does the overwhelming majority of installers fit them for that purpose?

hethmar

No one said it was "wrong" - just not best as far as we were concerned.

Plenty of other quotes on google re smokeless fuel/stainless steel - have a google.

No. 2 entry that comes up on google:
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Smokeless Fuels.[/FONT]
[FONT=trebuchet ms,arial,helvetica]Some smokeless fuels have chlorine contamination. Ask your supplier to confirm they are chlorine free. Never 'bank' and appliance for slow burning when using smokeless fuels.[/FONT]

No. 3

Flexible liners are available in two different grades depending on what fuel you intend to burn. A standard grade is suitable for wood. Smokeless fuels require a higher grade of stainless steel as the chemicals can destroy a liner suitable only for wood. It is more expensive, but we supply both types.



I think at this point I really need to be doing a bit of typing as we are inundated with enquiries.

Very best of luck.