Old car - economically viable

anewman

tomstickland wrote: »

Oh my god, this proves that it's a complete death trap.

Lol, my neighbours seem to think that about my car. Some drips of oil on the road and they're all funny and way over the top about it. They obviously don't get out much and haven't seen the supermarket car parks.

Then again they are the neighbours where about a year ago the woman smashed eggs on it (I'd just installed an alarm and I doubt she expected it) and they had their kids dumping rubbish on top of it day after day, and smacking it with a pipe etc. Only goes to show they got nothing better to do.

goldspanners

anewman wrote: »

Only goes to show they got nothing better to do.

and how robust your skoda is!

asbokid

lisyloo wrote: »

I have an H reg car (1990).
It's a Subaru Legacy which IMO is a well built and quality brand, however it's 19 years old and has done 140K miles...

The problem is that I don't know whether to keep my car.

Since it is a 1990 vintage, it must be the 2.2 litre 4WD Legacy. (Production on the 1.8 and the 2.0 Legacy models in 4WD didn't start until 1991)

FWIW, with a list of faults like that - - especially the corrosion issue - I would scrap it.

You could buy the same vehicle with 12 months MOT for less money, and certainly a lot less effort than it would cost to have your vehicle fixed.

Don't get sentimental.. it was never more than a tarted-up heap of iron ore, and it will be that again in 500 years time!

The car has one known problem that needs fixing

1) Exhaust has been blowing for months, very obvious, needs fixing before MOT at end of May.

You can buy pattern exhausts for that model of Scooby..

Here is the Timax range for that car...

Which piece of the exhaust has blown? I see the back box and the centre pipe are quite expensive.. over £60 each.

The car has several know problem that do not currently need fixing

1) leaks small amount of engine oil

The oil leak is from where though?

2) Front brake disc is warped causing vibration on braking (safe)

EBC discs are £25 each.. (D827s)

3) rain leaks in through sun roof

The leak is in the sunroof itself, or its surround, or perhaps just a blocked s/r drain channel? Maybe it could be unblocked with a coat hanger?

4) Has some rust - to my knowledge doesn't need fixing although needed some small amount of welding at last MOT near seatbelt housing.

Many would ditch it on the corrosion alone..

5) Jumps out of 4th gear sometimes and can be hard to get into 1st sometimes, noise indicating gearbox bearing is going but has been like that for ages.

Another major reason to ditch it..

6) fuel filter may be partially blocked (have had this before and recognise the symptoms)

£5 or £10..

7) rear door locks when you pull handle - bit of a pain if you can't open it from outside and are carrying heavy stuff

I've been living with all of that but now I have 2 unknown problems

1) High pitched whirring noise (gets louder with revs) when pulling away on startup i.e. when cold. This noise is in line with revs so decreases on gear change and then increases with acceleration. Revs are normal. Quite high pitched. Seems to be stable i.e. not getting worse.

I don't know that car, but can you localise the whine?

Could the bearings be dying on one of the auxiliary components, perhaps the alternator or, if it has one, the power steering pump? Or is it more of a drivetrain sort of whine? The transfer box is dying perhaps? Does it whine when revved in neutral, or only when moving?

2) Vibration/juddering from driver side front wheel when turning at slow speed. I recognise this as a CV joint/driveshaft problem. I'm not a mechanical expert but I've had subarus for over 15 years. I know there are 4 driveshafts on my car and previously I was told to replace the entire driveshaft and not just the CV joint. Furthermore when this happened on previous car (long time ago) I had to have genuine parts as there were no substitutes available. So if I am right about the cause then it could be expensive. This is quite a new problems and seems to be getting worse.

The main symptom of a worn outer CV joint is that it usually clicks when the steering is on full lock.. Has it been doing that?

The juddering could be the top bearing in the front suspension strut has seized. You can re-grease them, but by the time you've got the strut out, you might as well replace the bearing.

Have to say I'm tempted to scrap it.

I would scrap it, but then I am not fond of those cars...

MOT comes up shortly so exhaust HAS to be fixed but no point doing that if CV joints/driveshafts are on the way out. I have not yet had anyone look at it but might pay for professional opinion. Does anyone have any comments or angles? I have considered scrappage but I don't really want another car to be honest..

Scrap it!

lisyloo

Since it is a 1990 vintage, it must be the 2.2 litre 4WD Legacy. (Production on the 1.8 and the 2.0 Legacy models in 4WD didn't start until 1991)

No sorry that's not right.
(I got the V5 out to to be 100%).
It's 1820 CC and the date is 01/08/1990.
The model is Legacy GL 4WD.

especially the corrosion issue

The corrosion has needed very litte work (just one small hole needed welding and that was only because it was near the seatbelt housing).
It's getting worse only very gradually.
Not a major concern.

You could buy the same vehicle with 12 months MOT for less money, and certainly a lot less effort than it would cost to have your vehicle fixed.

I'm not sentimental but it is a case of "better the devil you know".
I know the faults sound bad but most of them cost me nothing and I just put up with them. Loads of cars have slight rust and leak a bit of oil woth no consequences, so it has to be put into proportion.
It's been extremely reliable and last broke down 5 years ago.
I'm not being sentimental but I do know it's a good car and if I buy another similar (which I wouldn't) then that's a big risk.

Which piece of the exhaust has blown? I see the back box and the centre pipe are quite expensive.. over £60 each.

Don't know but those sums are not at all frightening to a scooby owner.
I can affford to spend some money on it.
Remeber there is virtually no depreciation on this car and it costs me peanuts to insure.
The issue is really whether it's worth continuing.
I don't want to spend say £500 and then it breaks down in 2 months time.
These decisions are difficult because you don't know what's going to happen you can only guess.

The oil leak is from where though?

Don't know but my mechanic was unconcerned and said it would cost hundreds to fix,,so don't bother, just check the oil.
It's losing about 1 litre per year which isn't lots.
Loads of cars leak oil (just look at roads/car parks).

EBC discs are £25 each.. (D827s)

What about labour.
My last mechanic was very good and told me it wasn't worth bothering.
People seemed to be very concern about this vibration, but as it doesn't affect performance/safety and is not very noticeable then why should I worry?
As far as I know the rust, engine oil and brake are of little concern.

Many would ditch it on the corrosion alone..

What when it cost about £60 to fix?
That's why I have a cheap car and some spend £4K per year on depreciation.
Each to their own but I don't see this as a big issue.
What's the justification for that?
This was on localised area where a rubber bung had fallen out and was only an issue because of it's proximity the seatbelt housing,
Otherwise the rust is nowhere near being structural.
I'm not being defensive or sentimental but trying to be objective.
If it doesn't cost much or doesn't need fixing and doesn't look like it's going to need ltos of money short term, then what exacrtly is the issue??

Another major reason to ditch it..

Thanks for your help but explain why?
It's driveable and doesn't need money spent on it so what's the issue?
We need to be objective and split out the things that need money or are likely to need money from those that simply don't.

£5 or £10..

Fuel filter is £7 but of course that doesn't include labour.
I thikn labour was about £100 last time but that included diagnosing it.

Does it whine when revved in neutral, or only when moving?

Whines in neutral as well and whines when revved.

The main symptom of a worn outer CV joint is that it usually clicks when the steering is on full lock.. Has it been doing that?

No I wouldn't say it's clicking. more of a fast vibration or judder.
Definitely getting worse.

but by the time you've got the strut out, you might as well replace the bearing.

The problem with a lot of things on Subarus is the labour.
There are loads of jobs (perhaps not this one) that require engine removal.

Scrap it!

You haven't convinced me to be honest.
I'm quite prepared to be objective but some of the things you've pointed to cost me ZERO and it's driveable.
I am willing to spend some money as there is NO depreciation.
My OH for example spends £5K per year on depreciation as do many people with fancy cars.
Obviously I don't want to spend that much, but I don't have an issue with a few hundred quid, it's really jsut whether it's worthwhile, because of the likelihood of other things failing.

I think I need that professional opinion.

hartcjhart

perhaps I should change MOT stations:eek:

lisyloo

perhaps I should change MOT stations

Why?

I've categorically been told by experienced mechanics that many of these things simply aren't issues e.g. rust is not an MOT issue until it affects the structure.
Surface rust is just cosmetic and does not affect the safety of the car.
Having a slow oil leak is certinaly not an MOT failure and loads of old cars have them, just look at the supermarket car park next time you're there.

I'm grateful for ideas, but I have to believe experienced mechanics who've actually seen and driven the car rather than people who haven't seen it.

To just say "any rust means bin in", isn't exactly very money saving or objective.
The fact is that the rust and the oil leak are not likely to be issues in the next 12 months.

I can certainly tell you that Kwik Fit in Bath are very picky on their MOTs as the car failed with them last year but not on the warped brake disc, oil leak or door.

asbokid

lisyloo wrote: »

It's 1820 CC and the date is 01/08/1990. The model is Legacy GL 4WD.

The corrosion has needed very litte work (just one small hole needed welding and that was only because it was near the seatbelt housing). It's getting worse only very gradually. Not a major concern.

I'm trying to picture where the rot is.. at the top of the door pillar, or somewhere along the sill?

Wherever it is, it's only the corrosion that you can actually see and are aware of. On a 20 year old car, there is probably loads more rust gnawing away out of sight..

Don't know but those sums are not at all frightening to a scooby owner.

You're allowing £60 for the exhaust.. Fitting at £40. So there's a bill for £120 to start the ball rolling, and you've not even got to the MOT test centre yet..

It's losing about 1 litre per year which isn't lots.
Loads of cars leak oil (just look at roads/car parks).

This isn't a criticism, but there is the anti-social aspect of leaking oil onto the road to consider! Hope you don't live on Royal Crescent!

What about labour.

Lifting the car, removing road wheels, replacing discs both sides.. £50 labour. Cost of the discs: £50

While the car is lifted, remove and re-fit a front strut (which may have been on there for a decade or more, with bolts that are corroded and/or seized solid).. £40 labour upwards, perhaps more in Bath. The cost of the new top strut bearing (if that is what it needs).. £30-£40 perhaps.

total bill for that garage visit: £205

What when it cost about £60 to fix?

You've got the MOT test to pay for yet!... another £50

Forget about £60, the running total for maintenance, so far, is £255

If it doesn't cost much or doesn't need fixing and doesn't look like it's going to need ltos of money short term, then what exacrtly is the issue??

two words: false economy.

Are the tyres any good? Four cheapo tyres are probably another £160 fitted. What about the brake pads? Are they within spec? Warped discs can chew them up..

It could cost £300+ to scrape it through the MOT, and even then, the gearbox is totally worn out, it leaks oil, it has corrosion, and it sounds like the alternator is on its last legs..

Time to scrap it!

Fuel filter is £7 but of course that doesn't include labour. I thikn labour was about £100 last time but that included diagnosing it.

Well don't go back to that garage then!

Say £20 to supply and fit the filter.. and we're up to £275, and still with that dodgy alternator to budget for..

Whines in neutral as well and whines when revved.

No I wouldn't say it's clicking. more of a fast vibration or judder. Definitely getting worse...

Hope you've got breakdown recovery insurance.

The problem with a lot of things on Subarus is the labour.

Removing and re-fitting a McPherson strut should theoretically cost much the same on any vehicle.

There are loads of jobs (perhaps not this one) that require engine removal.

Sounds like a very good reason not to own a Scooby.

You haven't convinced me to be honest. I'm quite prepared to be objective but some of the things you've pointed to cost me ZERO and it's driveable.

It's a no brainer.. You have a few weeks on the MOT.. A potential bill for hundreds.. Autotrader lists dozens of Subaru Legacy models for £500 upwards, but are five or ten years newer than your car.

Why prolong the agony?! Scrap it!

I am willing to spend some money as there is NO depreciation.

It's not about depreciation. The car is worthless. This is a matter of throwing good money after bad...

I think I need that professional opinion.

Many "professionals" love your sort.. Female, financially comfortable, not mechanically-minded and ... emotionally attached to their cars...

Picture yourself in the mechanic's shoes. The economy is in a worse state than in the 1930s.. Are you going to be honest, and tell the chick to scrap her banger, losing yourself work to the value of £300+ ?

asbokid

lisyloo wrote: »

I'm grateful for ideas, but I have to believe experienced mechanics who've actually seen and driven the car rather than people who haven't seen it.

I can certainly tell you that Kwik Fit in Bath are very picky on their MOTs as the car failed with them last year

I wouldn't know about the Bath depot, but Kwik Fit generally has a poor reputation for employing badly-trained youngsters with no formal qualifications in vehicle maintenance.

Out of interest, did Kwikfit do the MOT work on your car after it failed, or did they hope to be doing that work when they failed it?

P.S. if you listed your 1990 Subaru in autotrader, it would be the oldest Legacy for sale anywhere in the UK.

After your car, the next oldest Legacy for sale is a 1994 model. That should tell you something......

lisyloo

You're allowing £60 for the exhaust.. Fitting at £40. So there's a bill for £120 to start the ball rolling, and you've not even got to the MOT test centre yet..

Yes, I agree.
It all needs to be added up.
But we need to bear in mind that a luxury car (I know that's not comparable wth this) would depreciate at about £4K - £5K per year. A much more moderate car of the type I would be likely to buy would probably still depreciate at say £1K per year.
I would also still need to pay for MOT, servicing and consumables on a newer car i.e. even a brand new car needs tyres replacing.
So there is a degree of slack in the budget.

So being entirely logical MOT, servicing and consumable need to be paid for anyway, so if the additional costs exceed say £1K per year (my budget for depreciation) then I would be better off scrapping it.
Of course that's not strictly true because the newer car would be nicer, but that's gives us a starting point for a budget.

This isn't a criticism, but there is the anti-social aspect of leaking oil onto the road to consider! Hope you don't live on Royal Crescent!

It's a very valid criticism (although many cars do leak oil).
95% of the time it's parked on private property as I have a private driveway at home.

Are the tyres any good?

Yes, had 4 new tyres last year and I don't do high mileage, so they are fine.
Brakes were also done last year (pads on front, cylinders on back) so I don't expect any brake issues either.
But exhaust is a definite issue.

Well don't go back to that garage then!

I disagree totally.
This mechanic was very good to me and very experienced and trustworthy (he liked me and I'd even go as far as to say he fancied me).
People don't diagnose problems and do labour for free.
You can't get a fuel filter fitted for free, but it's an occasional issue that I can live with.

Hope you've got breakdown recovery insurance.

Definitely.
Last time I had to use it on this car was 5 years ago, so it has been very reliable.
In general my (16 years) experience of Subarus is that they don't tend to just suddenly break down.
They tend to make noises for 3-4 weeks first (I've had to wait from Japan for a few weeks before now).

Sounds like a very good reason not to own a Scooby.

There are always trade-offs.
But yes, if you want cheap easy maintenance or good fuel consumption then don't buy one.
It was an excellent compromise vehicle for us for hot air ballooning (off road with trailer) and commuting, but we don't balloon any more so I wouldn't get another one.

It's a no brainer.. You have a few weeks on the MOT.. A potential bill for hundreds..

You analysis is good helpful and objective, but hundreds is not the issue because as I said I save thousands on depreciation.
The issue is as you say "ongoing false economy".

Autotrader lists dozens of Subaru Legacy models for £500 upwards, but are five or ten years newer than your car.

Agreed but I don't know the issues with them.
I do know the issues with mine.
I agree it looks bad, but it's a known quantity.

It's not about depreciation.

I disagree.
I'm saving approx £1K per year on depreciation.
That's money saving provided the ongoing maintenance (over and above routine stuff like tyres that would have to be paid anyway) is less than £1K per year.

Many "professionals" love your sort.. Female, financially comfortable, not mechanically-minded and ... emotionally attached to their cars...

That's quite funny actually because I want to scrap it and my husband wants to pay for the professional opinion.
I'm certainly willing to pay say £500 per year maintenance rather than £1K per year depreciation.
I think that's objective and money saving.
I don't make emotional decisions.
It's based purely on the functionality and finance.

Picture yourself in the mechanic's shoes. The economy is in a worse state than in the 1930s.. Are you going to be honest, and tell the chick to scrap her banger, losing yourself work to the value of £300+ ?

Well the last one wanted to sleep with me and did stuff for nothing.
Of course I don't go there now.

I'm not going to ask them whether I should scrap it.
I will ask them for the costs and then do my own analysis.
I do understand your point about vested interest (and it's a good one) but if the mechanic was being purely cyncial then he should keep the price low to encourage me to keep the car on the road, not overcharge which will encourage me to scrap it.

But thanks for your comment. It's objective and helpful analysis.

BTW - The place I'm going to is absolutely snowed under due to local repuatation.

lisyloo

but Kwik Fit generally has a poor reputation for employing badly-trained youngsters with no formal qualifications in vehicle maintenance

Perhaps but the long list I had suggested anything but "dodgy" so I mentioned it to counter some earlier implication that I had been to multiple dodgy MOT garages (been to 4 differnt ones from memory).
I used Kwik Fit purely for convenience as they were the only MOT place within walking distance from work.

Out of interest, did Kwikfit do the MOT work on your car after it failed, or did they hope to be doing that work when they failed it?

No, they don't do welding and told me straight away they couldn't do the work, so I don't think that can be a motivation.

That should tell you something......

Well I'm not fussy about cosmetics and I am prepared to put up with a lot of issues/problems (providing they aren't safety related of course).
But I have to say that personally I think it's smart and moneysaving to spend £500 on repairs rather than £1K - £5K on depreciation.
So I fully appreicate that others wouldn't want to drive my car but financially the parts/depreciation trade-off has been very sucessful and I'm quite suprised other moneys savers can't see that.
You have to remeber the amount of money I'm saving on depreciation (AND insurance) and not just count the cost of the repairs.
Furthermore I don't rush round paying to get dings and scratches repaired.
Our other car was hit in an airport car park by persons unknown and the repair bill was about £300. I save all that money as well.

Although I do appreciate of course that the scales might be tipping.
So far it's saved me thousands, so I honestly can't see that as stupid.
The "stupid" people are those paying £5K per year on depreciation if anything but of course if that gives people pleasure and they can fford it then that's their decision, but it's certainly not financially savvy.

Given that the notional "budget" is £1K then I think we need proper costs from a mechanic.
i.e. If the car costs less than £1K per year (over and abover normal MOT, servicing and consumables needed n ANY car) then it's worth keeping in comparison with a car that has £1K depreciation per year.

I'll keep it updated as it'll be interesting to see how it works out.
My own feeling is to scrap it, but I think we might need real figures rather than guesstimating.