Really cheap fruit trees and the garden economy – make your own by grafting

RAS

ceridwen wrote: »

I now have my eyes open for a duo-minarette apple tree (to join my plum tree and pear tree).

These duo-minarettes do they have two branches or is it one apple on the lower section and another on the upper section?

nodwah

That's really interesting RAS- I like the sound of that fruit group!

ceridwen

RAS wrote: »

Had not thought of car boots but was going to make very cheap trees to sell to the TT group.



Any votes on family trees being more attractive that single ones for cordons?

And anyone know of community orchards or other fruit groups?

Good ideas both - the v. cheap trees for T.T. groups and the carboot route (for those not yet "on board" re T.T. Movement). Guessing that maybes a bit of financial cross-fertilisation between the two might be a possibility? My duo-minarettes that I bought were £25 each - so I'm guessing that maybe duo-minarettes could go for say £15 each at car boot sales and for each duo-minarette that got sold that route then maybe a couple of quid of the proceeds could cover the cost of donating a tree to plant at some point in the town by the T.T. group? Dunno - I'm just thinking on my feet here - about what possibilities there might be...

I was looking very lustfully at a family apple tree the other day (it looked so pretty and I was thinking it would be good to have 3 varieties) - but had to restrain myself forcefully into hanging on and waiting for my mail order firm to have a suitable apple duo-minarette for me later in the year. My garden (if you can call such a tiny space that:cool:) is SO tiny that I couldnt find the space for the extra width a family tree would have as compared to a cordon type. So - its horses for courses - I would think family trees are the ideal for most people on the one hand - but a lot of us have such a tiny amount of outdoor space to call our own that its cordon trees or nowt. So - I guess its best to do some of both.

Community orchards or other fruit groups - hmmm...thinks....well if I've come across mention of this I would have whacked it onto my secondary blog somewheres - so it would be worth your while to hunt through that - I would have put it under the label "Councils/Community groups". I've been "running around" t'Internet for months now looking for anything and everything I could find re foodgrowing that we might like/need - so its quite a grab bag of useful/interesting stuff I've just "thrown" straight onto me blog....

http://mygardeningnotes.blogspot.com/

It sorta started out as my own personal gardening notes (hence the title) but moved on quite rapidly to me putting everything I come across that could conceivably be useful to T.T. Food Groups on it (hence all the community entries).

There is a Transition Town Food Group book being published in June this year - my pre-order for this is in has been sitting "on the table" at Amazon for a while waiting to get one of the first copies when they come hot off the press - by recollection I think its about £7. You will doubtless find that useful when it comes out to get a copy.

I'll nip off and check out what the name of it is - BRB.

ceridwen

RAS wrote: »

These duo-minarettes do they have two branches or is it one apple on the lower section and another on the upper section?

Now you've got me - they're sort of one long column. Now they've gone into leaf and are growing a bit I can see branches growing upwards from the main stem IYSWIM. I'm wondering myself how to tell which type of fruit is which - one is a duo plum and the other a duo pear. I'm blowed if I can tell which bit I'm expecting which type from.... So - I guess the answer is that I dont think they are two branches - I think it will probably be one type of fruit on the lower section and one on the upper section. The ones I got are from www.kenmuir.co.uk

Re the pollination - a lot of people are in the same position as myself. So I was specifically looking for self-fertile trees - so I could just have the one and know it would "do its thing" okay - without the need for another suitable tree nearby or me wondering whether I was supposed to "make with a paintbrush" or whatever and try and sort it out myself??

Newbies like me are likely to regard trees as potentially more difficult food to grow than a seed or plug plant of summat one can just stick in the ground. I do know that a basic set of info/instructions is something that is conspicuous by its absence with my trees and I'm scratching my head in various directions. I was sent a general purpose tree fruit thingie and a grow all sortsa fruit book. Neither of these things are the dead simple/specific to the exact tree I bought (and only that tree) thing. So - it would be very useful to give people say a 2 sides of A4 sheet with each tree that is specifically about THAT exact tree only:
- what size pot to put it in or how big a hole to dig (depending on whether its going to be in a container or no - as mine are)
- what sort of compost/whatever to use
- how often to "feed" it and with what
- what happens about pruning
- common ailments that are possible and what to do about them
- even the basic fact that I gather one has to deliberately remove blossom for the first 2 years to encourage more fruit in later years (on from which I'm there now wondering if my trees are Year 1 or Year 2).

These things are a bit daunting to a newbie - so a good accompanying info sheet would be good.

ceridwen

Reet - I've checked the title of the T.T. book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1900322439

for the Amazon page to order it.

"The Transition Guide to Food: Unleashing the growing potential in your community: how to unleash a food revolution where you are" and delivery will be in first week of July. Authors: Rob Hopkins and Tamzin Pinkerton.

In case anyone's wondering - no I'm not Tamzin:D

RAS

Ceridwen, Thanks for the link

Regarding duo-trees, it tells me "They consist of two varieties of apple, pear or plum fruiting on a single vertical stem, one above the other".

So basically, a stock, with a long scion grafted to it and another scion grafted on top of that. Not sure if they allow the lower graft to take before they do the second one, but now I understand, I can play with it or find out.

I do not suppose there is any reason why one could not graft three or four scions on top of each other, apart from time and expense, and more varieties would mean each would produce less.

Anyway, this thread has given me some mad ideas.

Like -

I have lots of jostaberry cuttings rooted - gooseberry/blackcurrant hybrid showing extreme hydrid vigour (not one for ceridwen as they are thugs). Could I graft both gooseberry and blackcurrant scions onto these? How would they behave? Would they become thugs too?

Red currants - I have and early and late and a white currant - can I make them into cordons, "duos-cordons", triple cordons or graft single espaliers with different fruit on each side?

That high branch is staying put but getting a trim. Could I bud a different variety on each shoot this summer and then cut the shhot to the base in the winter and graft the dual scion to a stock next winter?

Don't know and never will unless I experiment.

So thank ixwood and ceridwen in particular for inspiration. Not sure what Charles would say but .....

RAS

Another link for northerners http://www.lythdamsons.org.uk/index.asp

ceridwen

RAS - Yep that sounds about it for what my trees are like that I have sitting here.

I do think fruit trees with as many types of fruit on as possible with the space available sounds like the way to go. As far as a newbie like myself understands it - each of the two or three types of apple (or whatever) will come "on stream" at different times - thus spreading out the season when that tree provides fruit for as long as possible. Thats got to be a good idea - many people (including myself) dont have access to enough space for storing fruit beyond its season. I've got a bit of surplus apples from last year in my freezer - but freezers only have so much space in them and thats without mentioning the electric they need to run. If (what do I mean "if" - more like "when") we have interruptions in electric supply in a few years time it would be best if we werent reliant on energy-using appliances to store surplus produce. I'm optimistic enough to believe we will sort out our forthcoming energy problems - but there will, I believe, be an awkward "gap" where we will struggle with this issue.

So - yep family trees/duo-minarettes and the like would seem to be a way to help even out the feast/famine scenario throughout the year - ie too many fruit or none at all.

Reet - must go have a checksee on my personal little thingie - production line type growing of salad leaves I'm experimenting with....large tray banded with copper/layer of gravel thrown into it/large good-quality cat litter tray banded with copper that I'm actually trying to grow those salad leaves in sitting in that tray on top of the gravel. Think thats what you call "belt and braces" against slugs - copper/gravel/copper - trying to work out a system whereby slugs dont get ANYTHING at all of the produce...:D

yeh..I know..I know...a slug's gotta eat too you know...but just not our crops....;)

ixwood

Glad to have been of some help. Even if it's not for me, It's exciting thinking of the possibilities. Or maybe I should get out more!

"I do not suppose there is any reason why one could not graft three or four scions on top of each other, apart from time and expense, and more varieties would mean each would produce less.".

I'm far from an expert and might have misunderstood, but aren't the scions grafted to separate branches on the stock, not on top of each other?

Expense wise, where does the extra cost come from? Buying the scions? Can't you just use cuttings from your own plants? I imagine you'll build up a good stock of plants/varieties over time.

Growing your own and self sufficiency is really on the up at the moment (probably worryingly!). Especially fruit/perennial plants, as much less maintenance and molly coddling is needed and they don't need sowing every year like veg.

That combined with modern "high density" housing with tiny gardens, means there's a lot of potential for grafting and some imagination.

Ceriden, that's correct about extending the season. Different fruit varieties have different flowering and fruiting seasons. With the right varieties, the full apple fruit season is probably something like June/Aug - March. Using varieties that keep well will pretty much give you a constant supply of apples year round.

As you say, the problem with standard trees is it's typically feast and famine. Most people with an old established apple tree in their garden are overwhelmed with apples for a month or 2 and then nothing.

ixwood

Ceriden, it was out of fashion for a while, but there's loads of ways to store fruit and veg without electricity.
Jams, chutney, pickling, drying, brewing, dark storage etc etc.

People used to be amazingly imaginative and inventive in their ways. Necessity is the mother of invention I guess!

It's only relatively recently that everyone has had a freezer, mass imported goods and supermarkets everywhere.

I'm been building my self sufficiency library for 3 or 4 years now. It's all interesting stuff, enjoyable and even if I don't do it all now (the chance would be a fine thing!), the books/knowledge are one of my insurance policies and a great assets if the worst happens.

I find old books from the 60's/70'/80's or older, when some people at least remembered the old ways are best.

I have all sorts of books: Produce storage, Bee keeping, animal husbandry, small holdings, masonry, electronics, plumbing, dry stone walling, organic gardening, electrics, thrift, cook books, martial arts, carpentry, mechanics, herbs (growing and using), useful plants, first aid, natural medicine etc etc.

Not that I'm a bookaholic or anything!