"Sellers pack"

BobProperty

Wondered where Ian (1k in posts) W had got to on this thread. And I bet he wonders where I have been too! Hi Ian!
Ed, you have made several interesting points, most of which I agree with except the condensing boiler one. We aren't that bad at installing them, they are generally more efficient and they are / will become the norm.
There is a theory that this (HIP) is just a backdoor way of complying with some EU regs on home energy. That is not connected with the condensing boiler issue AFAIK.
Nice to see a HIP inspector joining in. Howee have you got any quotes for public liability insurance yet? Have any of your colleages?
Ian "that the breakdown rate had fallen in her agency from a 24% norm to only 1%" How did she measure that when I thought there were only 30 or 60 houses in the Bristol pilot? And I also think the Bristol trial HIPs were free to vendors.
The opposition to HIPs generally quote the figure of 4% of sales failing on survey. If true, we have a large hammer small nut situation (and lots of VAT for GB)
I am currently predicting that July 2007 will be seen as the point the housing market turns down. Not because of HIPs, but helped by HIPs, and, as they say in journalism, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story".
If you want to believe in history repeating itself, then check the rush to buy back in 1989 when double income tax relief was going to be removed from mortgages.

Ian_W

Good evening Bob,
Just when I thought I'd have to change my mind on HIPs - supporting Kraut boilers, Evil Union & 2 jags being a bridge too far IMO - you pop up and say them condessing boilers ain't too bad!!
Tell you what, mate I had one in a flat down London that broke down in the middle of winter in freezing weather and it took me 4 days to find a plumber who didn't want a call-out fee the size of 3rd world debt to turn out. Heating solved with a couple of borrowed leccy heaters but no hot water ain't a joke. Call me old fashioned - but a hot water tank with an immersion heater as back-up is what the airline industry call "built -in redundancy".

Anyway to get back to HIPs, the EA they interviewed had continued to offer HIPs to sellers AFTER the pilot had finished, so I presume the seller had to pay. She didn't give her methodology as it was quite a short interview but that's what she said - 24% down to 1% with HIPs. The norm I've always seen quoted for breakdown between offer and completion [for all reasons, not just survey probs] is a quarter. I'm not suggesting her figures were the bees knees, don't know the numbers she was talking about, but they were the first "new" info I'd heard in the press, TV or even on these threads, at least until howee came along.

Reason I hadn't posted on here is I didn't want to be repetitive of the other HIP threads and there was more heat than light being generated by one poster. What's your excuse, Bob? :beer:

BobProperty

Ian_W wrote:

... What's your excuse, Bob? :beer:

Er..I've been on some other website forums getting my posting count up? And there's a couple of guys who regularly post on them who would tell me how to fix my boiler if it broke
Anyway http://www.odpm.gov.uk/index.asp?id=1155797 interim findings. 180 sellers including 30 new Beazer homes. 51 exchanges or near to exchange, 14 withdrawals. As at 2/3 "complete".

EdInvestor

BobProperty wrote:

There is a theory that this (HIP) is just a backdoor way of complying with some EU regs on home energy. That is not connected with the condensing boiler issue AFAIK.

I would agree with you if it were not for the fact that both ideas have emerged from the same office of state.:cool:

Howie said

... the EU directive which means we have to give an energy rating to each property sold... if this survey was stand alone the price has been estimated at around £200.

So what is the problem with the existing surveyors who do mortgage valuations and ordinary surveys tacking the energy rating on the end - and anyone who doesn't have a survey has to get a stand alone energy rating for 200 quid?This would encourage more people to get surveys which is probably a Good Thing, and would be much cheaper and have nil effect on the housing market.

Where is the need for all this home inspectors and additional palaver and waste of money?

... large hammer, small nut situation

Could be

(and lots of VAT for GB)

Also could be, but IMHO he won't risk a property market crash for a bit more VAT.

Jorgan_2

Many of the surveyors I have spoken to are training to give energy rating reports as they feel the home condition report will be abolished & the energy rating will replace it.

I personally feel that there will be a shortage of Home Inspectors in June 2007, the government's own figures show they will require approx 7,500 Inspectors and there are approx 4,500 surveyors in the UK, assuming they all qualify as Inspectors. Many of the the people training to become Inspectors are doing so via distance learning courses and I have been told that course will take upto two years to complete. (Howee, please correct me if I am wrong on this.)

Surveyors also feel they will only be able to carry out two inspections per day on 'normal' properties, this may be cut back to one a day, if they get an old Victorian property for example.

Don't forget thet under section 162 (Housing Act) the launch date for HIPS can be postponed or abolished, so things may well change. There is still an awful lot that needs to be sorted out before this comes into play.

sheffield_lad

EdInvestor wrote:

This would encourage more people to get surveys which is probably a Good Thing, and would be much cheaper and have nil effect on the housing market.

Where is the need for all this home inspectors and additional palaver

Currently only 1 in 5 buyers bother with a "proper" survey, the valuation is nothing more than a good look around to make sure if the mortgage goes belly-up the lenders get their cash back. If every property sold has to have the energy survey there wouldn't be enough surveyors to do the job. The HIP pack is putting a lot of information in one place for example the government wants better and more accurate records of the country’s housing stock, every HIP will be recorded electronically on a huge database with each HIP supplier updating the information when a HI is done. As for the housing market I just cannot see how this will have an effect, maybe the months directly prior or after June yes, but to say the market will be effected long term is in my (humble), view unlikely especially as most seller are also buyers thus recouping most of the money spent on a HIP.

sheffield_lad

Jorgan wrote:

Many of the surveyors I have spoken to are training to give energy rating reports as they feel the home condition report will be abolished & the energy rating will replace it.

Many of the the people training to become Inspectors are doing so via distance learning courses and I have been told that course will take upto two years to complete. (Howee, please correct me if I am wrong on this.)

Most surveyors will do the energy training as its part of the HI it's not an expensive training course and if they do decide to do the HI it's one less element.

The diploma can be achieved within 12mts at a push but I believe as the deadline 01/06/07 nears more and more surveyors will jump onto HI's

BobProperty

Bob Property now switches to cynic / devil's advocate mode...

Ed "I would agree with you if it were not for the fact that both ideas have emerged from the same office of state." - that doesn't mean TwoJags agreed with it or decided it, he could just be landed with the job.

Ed "but IMHO he won't risk a property market crash for a bit more VAT" - won't be his problem will it? GB will be PM and some other sucker will be Chancellor doing his bidding.

Jorgan "they will require approx 7,500 Inspectors " - I'm not sure what this is based on. If it is based on recent activity in the housing market then I think that could be too many. It certainly will be if the market goes quiet after the introduction of HIPs or takes a downturn for any reason.

Howee "Currently only 1 in 5 buyers bother with a "proper" survey" - I questioned this previously. Is someone seriously suggesting that 4 out of 5 house purchases are cash and the buyer doesn't bother with a survey? I think it is a bit of careful wording by ODPM. 1 in 5 buyers request a "proper" survey, 99+% of lenders require a valuation survey.

Howee "the government wants better and more accurate records of the country’s housing stock" - so that they can do the revaluations for council tax cheaply?

Howee "most seller are also buyers thus recouping most of the money spent on a HIP." - Where? I'm a vendor. I have to pay out £800 for a HIP. So does the person selling the next house I buy. I will still have to pay for a valuation for the mortgage. (It saves me the LA searches, which given that all the property I have ever bought or sold have been in established areas and on the land registry, there has never been a problem with LA Searches or the like.) So unless I add £800 to the price of my property I won't see it back. (Oh alright minus the £20 for the LA search)

Jorgan and quoted by Howee "Many of the surveyors I have spoken to are training to give energy rating reports as they feel the home condition report will be abolished & the energy rating will replace it." - 1. Whoops - shame about all those people who have paid training course fees to become Inspectors then. Still won't be the first time the government has said one thing then changed its mind at the last minute (SIPPS and property).
2. Why would HIPs bother surveyors? They will still be doing valuations and full structural surveys. I would not be surprised if surveyors "look down" on HIP Inspectors as lacking knowledge and being trained to a limited standard in a hurry. If it goes in the direction implied by the preceding quote then surveyors will go on energy assessment courses, get a certificate and do the energy assessments along with their valuations. No need for HIP Inspectors.

Still waiting for any HIP Inspector to get a quote for Public Liability Insurance.

zag2me

I still think these sellers packs are a great idea, I cant believe people are so quick to put down a new scheme because estate agents and mortgage companies are saying they dont want them.

This is supposed to make life easier for everyone, making it compulsary means that there will be a level playing field.

Jorgan_2

BobProperty, 1 in 5 buyers don't have a survey, they have a mortgage valuation carried out by the lenders surveyor, this should not be confused with a survey.

The figure of 7,500 is the ODPM own figure. There is an average of 1.2 million property transaction in the UK every year.

Surveyors aren't deemed to have the right qualifications to carry out a home condition report, hence the need to requalify.

In general, having to pay out £800 or so in advance will hurt a lot of sellers. Many don't have this free cash to spare when moving house, many HIP providers are looking to offer deferred payments on the HIP, entering into credit agreements with clients. So if somebody 'buys' a HIP with a credit agreement, then for no falut of their own, they have still to fund the HIP via the credit agreement. Any body see a mis selling scandal round the corner with this one or is it just me? Also, doesn't the law require a 14 day cooling off on consumer credit agreements? If so will a HIP provider wait for the 14 days to clear before starting work on preparing the HIP, delaying the marketing of a property even further?