what is a "fair" unpaid Direct Debit charge?

Sol00

natweststaffmember wrote: »

ROFLMAO, that did make me laugh

I had a wee chuckle to the thought of that myself lol. I'm sure that'd go down like a lead balloon! :rotfl:

Sol00

Orford wrote: »

To your knowledge, how many times has that happened? This just gets more and more surreal.

Of course it happens, the member works in a bank and sees it everyday :rolleyes:

willo65

natweststaffmember wrote: »

Willo,


"The Rules of the UK Domestic Cheque Guarantee Card Scheme state that a card issuer
guarantees in any single transaction the payment of only one cheque taken from only
one of its own cheque books for up to £50, or for up to £100 or £250 if indicated in the
hologram provided the cheque is not drawn on the account of a Limited Company, and
i) The cheque bears the same customer name and, where printed, bank sort code,
as the card.
ii) The cheque is dated with the actual date of issue.
iii) It is signed, before the expiry of the card, in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and
Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Gibraltar or on the premises of any
United Kingdom Customs post located outside these territories in the presence of the
payee by the account holder.
iv) The card number is recorded on the reverse of the cheque by the payee
(this requirement can only be varied by specific prior agreement of the Scheme’s
governing body).
v) The card has not been altered or defaced.
vi) Where the guarantee is used to support an encashment service, then the following
rules will apply:
a) The number of guaranteed cheque encashments, when made with the support
of a cheque card, is limited to one cheque per customer per day.
b) Special “frequency marking” pages are provided at the back of cheque books,
and the appropriate day square is effectively cancelled by cashiers whenever
cheque cards are used to support encashments.
c) The cheque is delivered to the bank of the encashment service provider for
collection no later than 3 days after the date upon which the cheque is received
by the encashment service provider (for these purposes weekend days and Bank
Holidays shall not be included in the day count, nor the day upon which the
cheque is received by the encashment service provider)."

The PDF to the right of the article does invalidate what you have stated around guaranteeing the cheques. I have highlighted the relevant bit.

I don't really understand what you are saying. How does this apply?

willo65

Orford wrote: »

To your knowledge, how many times has that happened? This just gets more and more surreal.

It doesn't have to happen to mean its not possible it was an extreme example but you get what I'm saying.

natweststaffmember

willo65 wrote: »

I understand what you are saying but if the customer guarantees all the cheques and the bank refuses to pay then this would be theft from the store so it would still be theft?

The bank would be at fault since they have issued the cheque book and associated card and therefore the retailer has recourse against the bank. That is pretty basic stuff. It's still a civil matter.

Apologies for this but with regards to case law, there is one which relates to cheques.
Metropolitan police commissioner v. Charles (1977)

Link to case: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:szoNN4Drpj8J:www.a-level-law.com/caselibrary/METROPOLITAN%2520POLICE%2520COMMISSIONER%2520v%2520CHARLES%2520%255B1977%255D%2520AC%2520177%2520-%2520HL.doc+Metropolitan+Police+Commissioner+v+Charles+(1977)&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Orford

willo65 wrote: »

It doesn't have to happen to mean its not possible it was an extreme example but you get what I'm saying.

Yes, I get what you're saying. You support your arguement with a scenario which, you now admit, to your knowledge has never happened!! Theoretically, it could, but I seem to remember you critcising me for not living in the real world

Nathan_Spleen

willo65 wrote: »

I don't really understand what you are saying. How does this apply?

Are you serious?

Ok I'll spoon-feed it to you:

You said ''If you have a balance of £0 with no overdraft limit and a cheque book containing 20 cheques then you gurantee every cheque for £250 then i'm pretty sure that the £5000 you spent would be classed as theft''.

Natties post confirms that 1) ''you'' don't guarentee the cheque, the bank does and 2) your scenario of guaranteeing all cheques is impossible as the guarentee only applies to one cheque per chequebook.

willo65

natweststaffmember wrote: »

The bank would be at fault since they have issued the cheque book and associated card and therefore the retailer has recourse against the bank. That is pretty basic stuff. It's still a civil matter.

Apologies for this but with regards to case law, there is one which relates to cheques.
Metropolitan police commissioner v. Charles (1977)

Link to case: http://209.85.229.132/search?q=cache:szoNN4Drpj8J:www.a-level-law.com/caselibrary/METROPOLITAN%2520POLICE%2520COMMISSIONER%2520v%2520CHARLES%2520%255B1977%255D%2520AC%2520177%2520-%2520HL.doc+Metropolitan+Police+Commissioner+v+Charles+(1977)&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

Sorry edited my post at the same time as your response - what I don't understand is "state that a card issuer
guarantees in any single transaction the payment of only one cheque taken from only
one of its own cheque books for up to £50, or for up to £100 or £250 " so if a customer did guarantee all of their cheques for £250 to different institutions for single transactions then the bank would have to pay and the customer would have an unauthorise overdraft of £5000.

natweststaffmember

Nathan_Spleen wrote: »

Are you serious?

Ok I'll spoon-feed it to you:

You said ''If you have a balance of £0 with no overdraft limit and a cheque book containing 20 cheques then you gurantee every cheque for £250 then i'm pretty sure that the £5000 you spent would be classed as theft''.

Natties post confirms that 1) ''you'' don't guarentee the cheque, the bank does and 2) your scenario of guaranteeing all cheques is impossible as the guarentee only applies to one cheque per chequebook.

Nathan, on point 2 that is a misread as it is any 1 cheque PER DAY.

willo65

Nathan_Spleen wrote: »

Are you serious?

Ok I'll spoon-feed it to you:

You said ''If you have a balance of £0 with no overdraft limit and a cheque book containing 20 cheques then you gurantee every cheque for £250 then i'm pretty sure that the £5000 you spent would be classed as theft''.

Natties post confirms that 1) ''you'' don't guarentee the cheque, the bank does and 2) your scenario of guaranteeing all cheques is impossible as the guarentee only applies to one cheque per chequebook.

Read it again the payment of ONE Cheque from ONE cheque book in any ONE transaction so a seperate transaction means another cheque can be guaranteed.