Tax the poor - not the rich

treliac

lostinrates wrote: »

In trying to understand this, would it be possible for you to outline the issues which prevent you being in/aspiring to the higher tax rate?

The same as applies to most of us I would guess - he wouldn't be able to get a job that pays enough!

lostinrates

treliac wrote: »

The same as applies to most of us I would guess - he wouldn't be able to get a job that pays enough!

Sure, what I meant was why?

Education, abilty, lack of desire, personal circumstances?

treliac

lostinrates wrote: »

Sure, what I meant was why?

Education, abilty, lack of desire, personal circumstances?

Because, unless you work (successfully) for yourself or are in an unusually well paid area of work, incomes are in the main not that high. What is the average income? Something like £25k?

I'm educated, qualified and experienced in a recognised profession but I couldn't earn enough to pay the higher rate of tax.

Nor could most nurses, teachers and many middle managers, etc. It's why life is an ongoing struggle for middle income families and why so many mothers have to work and are forced to abdicate bringing up their own children.

lostinrates

treliac wrote: »

Because, unless you work (successfully) for yourself or are in an unusually well paid area of work, incomes are in the main not that high. What is the average income? Something like £25k?

I'm educated, qualified and experienced in a recognised profession but I couldn't earn enough to pay the higher rate of tax.

Nor could most nurses, teachers and many middle managers, etc. It's why life is an ongoing struggle for middle income families and why so many mothers have to work and are forced to abdicate bringing up their own children.

I agree with all of that, thats not something I dispute, I think thats the main picture acorss the country, other wise averages would be what they are, its the maths, innit. Of course, there are pockets of exception, usually geograhical...e,g, experienced london secretaries.

What I'm asking is what has formed the situation where you choose/are forced into a career where you know at the outset you will not earn in the higher tax band. For many people it could be vocation, it could be necessity to earn, it could be one of a huge number of things.

I'm not making a negative judgemnt about average or below average earners, I'm trying to understand what comes across as resentment and jealousy from Rochdale and get a human understanding of what has lead to this so I can try and empathise with the PoV as a human not as part of a mathematical certainty.

Pennywise

lostinrates wrote: »

What I'm asking is what has formed the situation where you choose/are forced into a career where you know at the outset you will not earn in the higher tax band. For many people it could be vocation, it could be necessity to earn, it could be one of a huge number of things.

Don't forget regional variances which are absolutely huge. I'm a qualified professional who's never earned enugh to pay HR tax, even in the days when I was a full time employee at the top of the scale. The reason was that I lived in an economic backwater with virtually no industry, no private sector head offices, etc - just lots of small owner-managed businesses. Our city's biggest employer is the NHS as it has a large hospital! If I had been prepared to commute or move to the larger cities, I could have trebled or quadrupled my pay with a single job move - for various reasons, I decided to stay in my home town. Our "best" areas and estates are populated by teachers, doctors and nurses, because they are the "above average" earners in our city. Contrast that with the major cities and the opposite is true.

lostinrates

Pennywise wrote: »

Don't forget regional variances which are absolutely huge. I'm a qualified professional who's never earned enugh to pay HR tax, even in the days when I was a full time employee at the top of the scale. The reason was that I lived in an economic backwater with virtually no industry, no private sector head offices, etc - just lots of small owner-managed businesses. Our city's biggest employer is the NHS as it has a large hospital! If I had been prepared to commute or move to the larger cities, I could have trebled or quadrupled my pay with a single job move - for various reasons, I decided to stay in my home town. Our "best" areas and estates are populated by teachers, doctors and nurses, because they are the "above average" earners in our city. Contrast that with the major cities and the opposite is true.

Thank you, thats ecxaclty the sort of answer I was hoping for, with an explanation. Interestingly it was really encouraging to learn you could earn into the higher rate if you move, but you made a choice that was right for you.

Nishka

Are you nuts?? People on lower wages don't usually even have enough to live on as it is.

I don't agree with the higher taxes (very high taxes) for high earners as I think everyone should pay the same rate - a lower rate. This would still mean higher earners are paying lots of money into the system but as it is current the government seems to want people to get off benefits, but yet if anyone dares to aspire to earn more they will have it all taxed away!

lostinrates

Nishka wrote: »

Are you nuts??

Me? Probably.

I think the system is unfair, I think it was unfair before, I think its unfair now. I think its over complicated and its lack of trasparity and equality makes poeople throughout the earning scale frustrated. I also want to really understand how people in different positions feel, and why, becasue it might change how I feel. Maybe its all fair really, or the best we can do towards fair and I just can't see why yet.:)

Nishka

lostinrates wrote: »

Me? Probably.

I think the system is unfair, I think it was unfair before, I think its unfair now. I think its over complicated and its lack of trasparity and equality makes poeople throughout the earning scale frustrated. I also want to really understand how people in different positions feel, and why, becasue it might change how I feel. Maybe its all fair really, or the best we can do towards fair and I just can't see why yet.:)

Yes I agree it's unfair on lots of levels and does leave people feeling frustrated...

I think from my point of view, there is a real lack of aspiration in the current social eco climate to earn more, climb the career ladder and upskill.

I am not saying there aren't people who want to do that - there are, and there are also some people who are unable to do that (people like my mum for example with chronic health conditions).. or in areas of great deprivation.

BUT I do think there is a general shift in terms of the UKs demographic in that people seem to expect more for nothing (particularly teenagers who seem to 'expect' there to be a benefit system- and thank goodness there is!) and they don't want to have to work at anything.. many people also have the attitude that there is nothing to work FOR.

Personally, I am very ambitious. Through personal circumstances (nursing my Gran through terminal cancer) I missed my oppertunity to go to university and instead following that period of acute stress I settled into a job, met a man, had a daughter, then left that man after 7 years of hell, met another man, now married to him and have a 'stable' family life for a change and I am back on the career ladder again. It's not been easy for me by any stretch of the imagination, not least of all because I have long term health conditions myself which require heavy medication and we also live with my mum (we own the house and she lives with us) who as I said has serious health probs as well.

Despite this I am about to start a new job in a week which is a real chance for me to get on the career ladder as it were. I am going to be working for a marketing agency earning £28k with bonuses and profit schemes. However, because of the way the tax is currently set - what is the incentive for me to earn more than that and move into the next bracket (rates change at £37k I believe) because it's just going to be taken away again.

I understand some people think people don't NEED a huge amount to live on - but if you work hard for your money, why shouldn't you have nice things? Why should it be taken away from you? I think tax rates should be moderate because it does support our welfare state which I am quite frankly glad to have... but I don't think the increases should be so steep - if at all - as people earn more as it builds a society of apathy and little desire for economic mobility.

There, that's my rant. :rotfl:

hubba

would we be having this arguement if all of us were earning 20k a year, and i can tell you now if i earned a 150k a year i would quite happily pay my taxes and count my blessings that i had a great job.