My boiler went pop

DJ_Smiffy

Hi,
I need a little advise please.
I have a conventional boiler that I believe is 9 years old. I noticed it was leaking when the boiler was off but not when it was on. I now know for sure what the problem was, as it gave up its fight for life yesterday. The casting has split right across the back of the boiler and now it does a fine impression of Trafalgar square’s fountain.

So I had a local plumber have a look at it a few days ago. His recommendation was to replace the boiler, all the pipe work up to the HW tank and the tank in order to “bring the system up to date” for £2500-£3000. The house was built around 1960 and the tank could well be original. I’ve no idea how to tell, but it’s not leaking and seems sound to me.

So the questions are:
Does it sound like he’s trying to make the most out of the job?

Would I make a significant annual saving from a modern foam lagged HW tank?

Would a combination boiler be a better investment/cheaper option?

It’s a three bed, 1 bath, two kids, and 1 cat house. No power shower at the moment (much to the wife’s disappointment) and no money to fit one ether. She has a shower everyday and usually runs the tank cold. The kids have a bath every other day and I jump in when they get out, to do my bit for the environment.

I started my own packaging manufacturing company a year ago so money is extremely tight at the moment, other wise I’d probably be happy to have the whole lot replaced.

Many thanks
Dave

flowerfairy159

Hi,

Not sure if this will help but I just had a problem with my boiler that Im currently sorting for £100.00 cheaper than quoted by all plumbers who came to look.

Firstly I recommend you get 3 companies that offer a free qoute to come and look. This way you get a few prices and can see each companies opinion.

Then get written quotes for the work including labour costs, parts costs and VAT. This way there will be no surprises.

I did this and then went to a trade yard and looked at the products myself. I then spoke to the poeple who run it. I went to 3 yards and from each one brought a different part as it was cheaper. I brought all the parts needed for a £70 less than quoted and am paying for another guy to fit it all.

Also something Ive found. Dont get a qoute from the guy you want to use. It might be free but theyll charge you if you use them in the end (as I found out when getting the quotes).

I hope this helps you.

Canucklehead

DJ_Smiffy wrote: »

Hi,
I need a little advise please.
I have a conventional boiler that I believe is 9 years old. I noticed it was leaking when the boiler was off but not when it was on. I now know for sure what the problem was, as it gave up its fight for life yesterday. The casting has split right across the back of the boiler and now it does a fine impression of Trafalgar square’s fountain.

So I had a local plumber have a look at it a few days ago. His recommendation was to replace the boiler, all the pipe work up to the HW tank and the tank in order to “bring the system up to date” for £2500-£3000. The house was built around 1960 and the tank could well be original. I’ve no idea how to tell, but it’s not leaking and seems sound to me.

So the questions are:
Does it sound like he’s trying to make the most out of the job?

Would I make a significant annual saving from a modern foam lagged HW tank?

Would a combination boiler be a better investment/cheaper option?

It’s a three bed, 1 bath, two kids, and 1 cat house. No power shower at the moment (much to the wife’s disappointment) and no money to fit one ether. She has a shower everyday and usually runs the tank cold. The kids have a bath every other day and I jump in when they get out, to do my bit for the environment.

I started my own packaging manufacturing company a year ago so money is extremely tight at the moment, other wise I’d probably be happy to have the whole lot replaced.

Many thanks
Dave

Good evening: Make and model of boiler? You need a second RGI in to determine whether your boiler is beyond economical repair. Replacement costs will be dependent on your location in the UK and the specification of the installation...choose a RGI who follows 'Best Practice' as detailed in this guide from the Energy Saving Trust. You will find tremendous variation in price and quality of installation as detailed in numerous threads on this forums. If your boiler can't be repaired go for a quality product with a good warranty eg. Vaillant, Viessmann, Worcester Bosch installed by someone who is also services and repairs.
Whoever you use, check his/her registration with Gas Safe Register.

HTH

Canucklehead

DJ_Smiffy

Hi,
The boiler is a Potterton Kingfisher 2 and it lives in Chesham Bucks.

When It started to seriously leak yesterday, I shut off the gas, tied up the stop !!!! in the header tank, drained the radiators and the HW tank had a bit of dinner and went to bed. This evening I re-filled the HW tank to confirm my suspicions that the coil has had it and sure enough the boiler started leaking again. So I’ve disconnected the boiler and caped the pipes so we can at least use the emersion.

So if I go for a conventional system a new HW tank is a must but at £180-£250 it’s a drop in the ocean. I’ve fitted a couple in the past so I’m happy to do that myself, I’d have a go at the boiler and having it gas safe tested but I don’t like gas as it goes bang. Electricity’s ok, 415 hurts a little but no chance of flattening your house and half the road. The boiler room (shed) is about 2 metres from supply and is utilising 15mm at the moment.

I think at this point I’m leaning toward a combi. The only worry is if it breaks down your back to the kettle as no emersion. One question, when you say the flow rate is poor, how poor compared to a conventional system? Are some combi boilers better than others?

One thing I’ve learned above everything else is that this boiler lark is far more complicated than I would have imagined. I guess the best solution would be to have the existing boiler repaired and stick in a new HW tank or win the lottery and move.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Best regards
Dave

saintlee

Hi Dave, yep certainly does sound like the coil has gone in the cylinder as well, if you are getting water out of the boiler with only the HW tank filled

think I would possibly be leaning towards a combi, as you may well have developed a crack in the heat exchanger, so you have two major problems to fix, and a combi would deal with both issues in one hit.

To answer your point about flow rate, yes some manufacturers do perform better than others, you can look up the flow charts online easiliy enough, a 24 kw should give you at least 9 l/m. A 28 k/w should give you at least 11 l/m. In a normal residential house, a 24kw combi is always going to satisfy heating requirements, a bigger sized boiler will only effect your h/w output.

As mentioned previously I think the Heatline is the best out of the cheaper brands, a decent flow rate, easy installation, 2 yr guarantee and very few problems with all the ones we've fitted over the last 3-4 years.


If you feel competent enough to do the pipework yourself you will save money on installation costs. But it can be a little tricky if your not certain.of what you are doing

but heres a quick outline of what needs to be done.

You need to remove the f+e/vent pipes to both the hw and the heating circuit, taking out the motorised valve, pump and obviously all pipes to the cylinder (the flow pipe which went into the motorised valve needs to join directly into the central heating pipe which came out of the other side with the third pipe which was going to the cylinder removed) . Where the cylinder return joins back into the Central Heating pipework, you need to remove the Tee (or cap it off with an air vent if accessable) .

make sure that any areas which could form an airlock are removed or have air vents (preferably automatic) placed at the highest point, as air can no longer escape up the old vent and f/e pipes.

Essentially what you need to end up with is a two pipe system going straight back to the boiler which picks up the flow and return from each radiator. This will almost cettainly involve removing flooring upstairs to get to the necessary pipes.

The cold feed to the loft space also requires removing, but make sure you don't cut out any supply to taps etc under the floor.

If you have any cold taps which are tank fed, this needs to be re-routed to pick up the cold mains supply somewhere, and agaim make sure any fill or vent pipes are removed and capped off.

You will also need to run a cold main up to the boiler, and a hot draw pipe away from the boiler which has to connect back into the existing HW system

Also bear in mind that you need to get a condensing pipe either into your waste pipes or if not practical you can make a filtered soakaway in the garden with lime chippings.

I would certainly recommend that the boiler change itself be completed by a professional as there are many pitfalls to do with flue positioning and plumage which have to be met in current regs as well as the obvious gas regulations. If you don't get a certified benchmark book and boiler registration, you won't get your boiler guarantee and it can now cause problems if at some point you wish to sell your house.

One last thing, I strongly recommend you get the system powerflushed immediately upon completion. If you can't justify the expense, at least make sure that it is commisioned with a sentinel or fernox system cleaner for at least a few hours.

Boiler manufacturers now insist on it to validate the warranty

And obviously as Canucklehead said, it may be worth getting a second quote on repairing the boiler, not too much goes wrong with thr old Kingfishers, they were good boilers and there isn't much to go wrong! Especially if you can replace the cylinder yourself!



good luck
Lee

Canucklehead

Good morning: The DHW performance of any combi is dependent on mains pressure and flow rates as well as gas supply . A 24 kw combi , regardless of manufacturer, will have a disappointing flow rate. A site survey by a RGI recommended to you by a source you trust will determine the suitability of the options.
For moneysaving over the longer term, choose a quality boiler and 'Best Practice' installation (detailed in the EST guide)....however, a boiler is only as good as its installation and annual servicing.

Beware..in the current economic climate,.there are even more corner cutters out there recommending inferior solutions at rock bottom prices. As stated earlier, check out other threads on MSE.

The Kingfisher is a workhorse...hopefully it can be repaired, the cylinder replaced, and ££££ saved.;)

HTH

Canucklehead

DJ_Smiffy

Right then, what have I learned today?
The problem with my Kingfisher is the dirty great split in the back of the heat exchanger. I went to Potterton’s web site and ended up on interpartspares.co.uk and into their parts arena which forced me to download a plug-in and I hate that, but I won’t whinge here.
On the fluehood plate it says my boiler is a CF60 K/F MK2. The parts site has reference numbers, prefixed with GC but I’ve been unable to find a GC no. On the boiler. Closest I’ve found is GVL017855. Having worried about that I’m not sure it makes a difference as all the CF60 boilers seem to have the same part no. for the heat exchanger, 204017. The other thing is that the heat exchanger in my boiler has 202052 cast on it. Obviously I don’t want to waste time and money only to find it’s the wrong part.

Assuming it’s the correct part and assuming I can track one down, is it as straight forward a job as it looks? Seems to be 4 bolts to remove the fluehood and 4 bolts to remove the heat exchanger. Would the ceramic rope need replacing and what does it do? Kind of thinking there must be more to it and worried about hidden pit falls, any advise?

N.B never take a fluid clutch apart to see if you can fix it, You’ll never get the billion little vanes and springs back in it again, presuming you can work out where they went in the first place.;)

Also any rough idea on price and the chances of getting one? The “where can I get a part” section lists 10 stockists within 15 miles of me and I’ll give them a ring tomorrow, but was wondering if I’ll get the sharp intake of breath followed by “No mate, best get a new boiler. We can sell you a blab la bla”

Thanks for all your help
Dave