DLR Penalty charge - honest mistake

gner_ex

FARE-COP wrote: »

The reference to a mainline station is an irrelevance in the case of the DLR.

All of the DLR is a controlled ticket area and it does not have an interchange with any mainline station.

Limehouse, Woolwich Arsenal, Stratford, Lewisham....

My point is that the ticket was accepted as valid - some would see this as entrapment. Barrier staff at a long distance TOC who run from a London terminus with a vaulted roof were recently uncovered to be intentionally accepting invalid tickets at the ends of the platforms, only for on-train staff to excess them. London Travelwatch were involved I believe.

gner_ex

FARE-COP wrote: »

Purchasing a ticket after being reported does not prevent action.

No - but it shows that no net loss has occurred - which is the OP was taken to County court rather than Crown would be the prime factor of interest.

FARE-COP

gner_ex wrote: »

Limehouse, Woolwich Arsenal, Stratford, Lewisham....

My point is that the ticket was accepted as valid - some would see this as entrapment. Barrier staff at a long distance TOC who run from a London terminus with a vaulted roof were recently uncovered to be intentionally accepting invalid tickets at the ends of the platforms, only for on-train staff to excess them. London Travelwatch were involved I believe.

In every case except Stratford you leave one rail company's station to enter another.

Lewisham & Limehouse you walk between stations

Woolwich, you pass around the corner to another rail company and the signs are clearly displayed.

At Stratford you go to a specifically designated platform with large signs at the entrance and a validation point for Oysters.

Having been advised that a ticket is not valid negates any mistake made by any other check, but would provide a basis for mitigation that may be considered. It does not validate the ticket.

FARE-COP

gner_ex wrote: »

No - but it shows that no net loss has occurred - which is the OP was taken to County court rather than Crown would be the prime factor of interest.

A loss does not have to occur.

there are three relevant matters worth reading:

1. S5 of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, which refers to 'having not previously paid...'

2. There is case precedent whereby the judgement ruled that 'although the rail company may not have lost any money, at the time of travel the passenger 'had not previously paid his fare'. (The specific case reference escapes me at the moment, but I will look it out and post later.)

3. The strict liability Byelaw requirement to hold a valid ticket when in the controlled ticket area. 'Fail to show' is the offence.

No's 1 & 2 are concerned with 'intent' and all three of these are summary matters that may result in the issue of a Summons

The Magistrates Court is the correct place for the allegation to be laid.

The County Court would be the place to issue proceedings for an unpaid civil debt.

The alleged offences of travelling without a valid rail ticket with intent to avoid a fare or the Byelaw offence of failing to show a ticket on demand are not civil debt matters.

pippitypip_2

Thanks everyone for coming back to this thread, I really appreciate the advice.

I have to admit I'm a bit confused by all the technical law points but I've paid the fine anyway. My stupid mistake, I have to pay for it but you can bet anything you like I'll be double checking the date like crazy next time my season ticket runs out!

My only real niggle is I consider myself really honest and I wasn't trying to evade anything and I see people who really don't care one way or the other get asked to leave the train all the time. But hey, that's life and the end of it really!

Thanks again so much.
pippitypip.

Altarf

I overheard an interesting conversation on the DLR recently when a Ticket Inspector was checking tickets.

The passenger opposite me offered their Oyster card to be checked, and the Inspector's machine went "nope". The passenger seemed genuinely bemused and explained that they had come through via the tube and at the tube station they entered they had swiped the card and the barrier opened to let them on, so how could they not have paid.

The Ticket Inspector's response was "Yeh, a lot of the machines don't work properly. Even if the barriers open, if the green light didn't come on you haven't paid", and carried on issuing a penalty fare notice.

I found it was astonishing that a member of staff was so willing to declare that the system was broken, and I would be interested what the response would be if the passenger used that statement in defence to the Penalty Fare Notice.

pippitypip_2

Altarf, I've heard a similar conversation recently too. As I travel mainline I get my ticket all in one, rather than use my oyster, as I'm always worried I'll forget to swipe for the DLR or it won't work properly.

When I do use my Oyster on the tube, I always scrutinise the screen, but that's to check my balance really more than make sure the light has gone green.

To be fair, I'd hate to be a ticket inspector, they must get a lot of grief!

pippitypip

Altarf

pippitypip wrote: »

I'm always worried I'll forget to swipe for the DLR

I loathe the DLR due to the fact that they hide the Oyster swipe machines.

For example at Canary Wharf, why are there no machines on the platform or near the top or bottom of the escalator. They are hidden away by the pillars in the concourse.

Of course it's not like they want you to forget...

pippitypip_2

I know - I'm a Canary Wharfer as well! The amount of people who rush on the DLR and then jump off to swipe is unbelieveable.

In any other walk of life that's almost entrapment! I've also had my Oyster take the money twice, when you're not sure it swiped properly the first time, which is easier to do on the DLR than anywhere else.

Why can't or didn't they install proper ticket barriers like every other tube line? It's crazy but then, the new platforms at Stratford are crazy too. They just recently built them and they don't have proper roofs so everyone gets soaked and windswept. Clever.

robt_2

Ticket barriers require manning in case of an emergency.