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Sitting tenant from 1970s
Comments
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What is the condition of the property: has the family maintained it well or has it been allowed to deteriorate? Does it have adequate heating? Apologies if this is not the case with your property but lawyers are unfortunately only too aware of cases in which LLs hope to "encourage" a protected T to go by doing the bare minimum of maintenance to the property.
It has been maintained to the same standard as the other two flats. My parents (and the person they inherited it from) are conscientious landlords, although their attitude is one of maintaining the flats in decent condition rather than tarting them up with the latest improvements. There has been no attempt to "encourage" him out or to make life difficult for him.No, it's not ridiculous: it's just that you are used to the current ASTs which offer little security for tenants. Thisone is a protected (Rent Act) tenancy - the owners *are* able to sell with the T in situ, just not in the manner in which your extended family would like to arrange things.
You say that the only reason everyone wants the T out is so that one family member can get a mortgage, but earlier in the paragraph you mention that this family member would not want the T to stay forever just "at least for the forseeable future", ie presumably until the property can be "tarted up" and let out at a market rent?
Your family will of course be aware that should the T have family members living with him at the time of his death then the tenancy may continue.Most lawyers would advise a tenant *not* to give up their protected tenancy, other than in exceptional (and/or financially conducive) circumstances.
Thank you. It's helpful to discuss it with someone who seems to know what they're talking about. One problem is that every time someone dies, the property ownership gets more fragmented - from the original landlord (in the 1940s I think), to another person, to two siblings, to a person and a sister-in-law, potentially to several cousins with small shares each, some time within the next 20 years (ie within the lifetime of the tenant). As you can imagine, this is a bit of a nightmare, because everyone has to agree before anything can be decided about anything. My side of the family want rid of the property, so it would be really helpful to find some way of letting A&B get ownership of the property all onto their side of the family.
My side of the family would be quite happy to sell the whole building to an investment LL, but since A isn't willing, the option of selling my parents' share to B seems the best way to go. The alternative would be to take A to court to force a sale, but we really don't want to do that if it can be avoided. As to what B will eventually do with the property, I don't know. I suspect B would say that's none of our business once we've sold it to her, and I think she'd be right!
Since you seem to know how these things work, I would be grateful for your opinion on my idea on the previous page. Do you think it might be possible for my parents to sell flats 1&2 to B (with a mortgage), leaving A with ownership (outright) of flat 3 and the rest of the building and land (and maybe a share of flat 2 if it worked out that way)? Or is there some reason why that wouldn't work?Do you know anyone who's bereaved? Point them to https://www.AtaLoss.org which does for bereavement support what MSE does for financial services, providing links to support organisations relevant to the circumstances of the loss & the local area. (Link permitted by forum team)
Tyre performance in the wet deteriorates rapidly below about 3mm tread - change yours when they get dangerous, not just when they are nearly illegal (1.6mm).
Oh, and wear your seatbelt. My kids are only alive because they were wearing theirs when somebody else was driving in wet weather with worn tyres.
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The tenant is probably legally able to stay until he dies.
I agree with ILW - I think your only legal option is to offer a cash incentive.
He'll also be entitled to pass the tenancy on to someone else... properties like these are worth about 40% of the value without - so you sell for 40% of the value without the tenant or you pay the tenant 30-40k is the amount generally quoted on here to leave...0 -
barnaby-bear
Thanks for the info, but that's not the situation. They can't sell, because the other owner (A) doesn't want to sell to anyone else as long as B is interested in buying into the property.
Is there any reason why it wouldn't work to sell the other two flats to B, and get A to take over sole ownership of flat 3 plus the freehold of the building and land? I understand that this would put B in a much better position than A, but I think A is quite motivated to help B to get in on this, and might agree to a plan like this. I'd like to suggest it to the family, but not if it wouldn't be legal or possible or something. Anyone got any ideas?Do you know anyone who's bereaved? Point them to https://www.AtaLoss.org which does for bereavement support what MSE does for financial services, providing links to support organisations relevant to the circumstances of the loss & the local area. (Link permitted by forum team)
Tyre performance in the wet deteriorates rapidly below about 3mm tread - change yours when they get dangerous, not just when they are nearly illegal (1.6mm).
Oh, and wear your seatbelt. My kids are only alive because they were wearing theirs when somebody else was driving in wet weather with worn tyres.0 -
N79 would the tenant be able to claim they were tricked if the rent remained the same?
Yes - because they will have given up a secured tenancy which can be inherited for an insecure AST. Hardly the same terms. If you were to offer them terms to leave then in order to protect yourself from any subsequent claims I whould recommend that you pay for the Ts to take legal advice from their own solicitors. Of course such advice would ensure that the T would have to be paid a substantial "bribe" to give up their rights under the tenancy.
While I am not an expert in rent act Ts (I have only 3 and have no wish to try to get them to give up the tenancies) any pressure to give up their rights could lead to a court reinstating them. There is very strong protection for these Ts thanks to the activities of Rachmann et al.0 -
barnaby-bear
Thanks for the info, but that's not the situation. They can't sell, because the other owner (A) doesn't want to sell to anyone else as long as B is interested in buying into the property.
Is there any reason why it wouldn't work to sell the other two flats to B, and get A to take over sole ownership of flat 3 plus the freehold of the building and land? I understand that this would put B in a much better position than A, but I think A is quite motivated to help B to get in on this, and might agree to a plan like this. I'd like to suggest it to the family, but not if it wouldn't be legal or possible or something. Anyone got any ideas?
Does B currently own property to raise funds against? Would solve the mortgage issue, but from your posts so far, I assume not, so that route is not an option.
I think your solution is workable, assuming that the building is structured as 3 leasehold flats + freehold of building + land. Your parents and A both sell their shares of the other two flats to B. A buys out your parents share of the long term tennats' flat and their share of the freehold with the proceeds.
If A doesn't want to do this then there wouldn't be a problem selling your parents' share of the other two flats to B as these are presumably mortgageable. A could buy out your parents' share of the long term tenant's flat if they can do so without a mortgage, bearing in mind that this will be at a lower price than "open market value". Re. the freehold, I'm not sure whether B would be able to buy your parents share, or whether this would also need to be bought out by A.
Your option gives the neatest solution I think, provided B doesn't mind not owning a share of the freehold.They deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth. -- Plato0 -
Thanks Strapped. That's very helpful.
If it isn't currently structured as 3 leasehold flats + freehold of building + land, would my parents and A be able to restructure it so that it would become like that?Do you know anyone who's bereaved? Point them to https://www.AtaLoss.org which does for bereavement support what MSE does for financial services, providing links to support organisations relevant to the circumstances of the loss & the local area. (Link permitted by forum team)
Tyre performance in the wet deteriorates rapidly below about 3mm tread - change yours when they get dangerous, not just when they are nearly illegal (1.6mm).
Oh, and wear your seatbelt. My kids are only alive because they were wearing theirs when somebody else was driving in wet weather with worn tyres.0 -
I knew of a sitting tenant in the 1980's in a house in London paying a rent of, wait for it, two pounds per week!!
The old rules were indeed the case that you could pass on a property once to a relation if they were living with you and they could stay there until death as well.
And protected tenants could not go on to assured shorthold agreements either. It may have changed in recent years but that was certainly the case when the 1988 Housing Act was passed (when ASTs were introduced.)
When these properties are bought by investors they are basically long term investments for when the tenant eventually leaves and the value can be unlocked.0 -
Thanks Strapped. That's very helpful.
If it isn't currently structured as 3 leasehold flats + freehold of building + land, would my parents and A be able to restructure it so that it would become like that?
Your first solution would work fine. And yes, you could structure it like that, three leasehold flats, management company owning the freehold consisting of three shares, one share owned by each leaseholder. Obviously B would be giving up value if he became the sole owner of the Protected Tenancy flat so would need to be compensated when the sale of the other two flats took place unless B liked A so much they are happy to be effectively giving them money.0 -
doesnt seem fair to me. If you're family own the property you should be able to do as you please imo as long as you treat the tennant correctly and provide adequate notification0
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doesnt seem fair to me. If you're family own the property you should be able to do as you please imo as long as you treat the tennant correctly and provide adequate notification
If B buys with a mortgage, then the family doesn't own it anymore - the bank or building society does. And they want security.They deem him their worst enemy who tells them the truth. -- Plato0
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