made redundant, any point in appealing it?

hassony77

Hi

I was also told that that I was made redundant 10 days ago, i haven't worked since then., I had my consultation meeting on monday.

my duties, and the team that I was managing (I was the quality manager) have been given to another manager

my question is, is it fair that I was the one that was made redundant instead of the person? as there was no pool or anything like that, and I have always had positive feedback from the directors as to the work I was doing.

also, I have found out that the person who is taking over my duties actually knew about it before I did!, Is that allowed? or have the company broke any rules?

another question, If I do appeal my decision, would they still have to pay me for any delay because of the appeal ?

thanks

LindsayO

sorry to go through this, I definitely think its worth it appealing, were you the only person at your workplace made redundant?

Pete111

You should appeal on the grounds on a flawed process by the sounds of it.

I may be able to offer more detailed advice if you post what exactly has happened (and when) in the process so far.

From what I read at the moment you were told you were definitely being made redundant and then the consultation happened? if so that is incorrect and you have a case. The fact there was no overt selection process is also suspect.

Let me know the details if you would like more advice

hassony77

thanks for the replies

they were 18 of us who were made redundant (from around 170 people), I was the quality manager there (been there for 18 months).

on the 13th of march HR met me and gave me a letter saying that I was being considered for redundancy, and than I had the consultation meeting a week later.

my duties as quality manager have been given to the test manager (who will now manage quality and test), I didn't realise it at the time but he was asking me questions about my role and future audits a couple of days before I was told about the redundancy, speaking with my team it turns out he was asking them the same thing. which makes me certain that he was approached about taking over even before I was told that I was considered for redundancy.

I have until tomorrow to hand in the appeal, do I have a case?

thanks

Pete111

Ok here is what should have happened as a bare minimum based on what you have put down.

You should have been formally put at risk of redundancy in writing. In this letter you should have been invited to a 1st consultation meeting. This meeting should usually not take place sooner than 48 hours after your first notification - you need time to collect your thoughts and organise a colleague or union rep if you wanted to bring one to the meeting.

A 1st consultation meeting should have taken place (as invited to above). Mgt need to outline the reasons for redundancy and you should have been given chance to ask questions, give your thoughts on how to mitigate the redundancy + given the option of taking a colleague or Union rep with you. A process for selection should have been outlined to you here also.

Following this first meeting (and dependant on the queries you may have raised which may have necessitated an 'interim' meeting) you should then have been formally invited to another consultation meeting some days later. At this the decision on the redundancy should have been given to you in writing. I usually work on a timeframe of no less than 2 weeks for this process from start to finish. However, with redundancies involving over 19 people, 30 days for the process is the legal minimum. You have said 18 people were made redudant - were any others made redundant from the company within the last 90 days? If so these redundancies count towards the total also and the company may have breached process re timescales. Please also confirm how your consultation process worked in practice compared to the above.

At the same time as the consultation, Some form of objective selection process should have taken place. If you were the only person in your role (I think you were) then management should be able to show they were objective in proposing the other Mgr absorb your role. However, I am assuming that the other Mgr was not put at risk of redundancy? If not, you need to ask why you were not considered eligible to absorb their role - Are they more senior and/or have relevant skills in Quality control that you lack for their current remit? The question here is 'Is it fair and objective to automatically give your remit to the other manager'

You now have had the redundacy confirmed and now have the right to appeal. I think you may have some grounds to do this on both procedure and selection. Please come back to me on my queries in italics and I will try to help further.

P

hassony77

thanks Pete for your help

there have been no other redundancies in the last 90 days

the consultation period worked as follow - 13th of march - HR and Finance director calls me in to give me a letter and tell me that my position is being considered for redundancy - > 23rd of march meet with HR and COO for a consultation meeting, they tell me that nothing has changed the last week and they are sorry to have to let me go as they had no problem with my work, the COO said he is happy to give me a personal reference for my work -> I got a letter today (26th) dated on the 23rd confirming my redundecy and saying I have 5 days to appeal.

with regards to your last point, the other manager has no experience in QA at all, he has been with the company for a long time, but mainly has been working as a test engineer, thats my main concern to be honest, I don't believe that he was at risk from redundancy, I guess they know as much about quality as I did about test, the only difference is it would have cost them more to make him redundant as he has been there longer! (is that a valid reason?)

thanks for your help again

Pete111

Hi Hassony

The process they have followed is flawed.

They have an obligation to consult with you properly as per my orginal post. putting you at risk then meeting with you a week or so later to confirm the redundancy is in no way adequate. If you wish to appeal, this should be your main point

In addition, I suspect you would have an argument for appealing on the grounds of selection also. It appears that a situation where you have 1 test and 1 quality engineer (at a similar level? please confirm) you now have 1 test/quality engineer role which has arbitrarily been given to the ex test engineer with no proper selection process carried out.

A proper process would have seen you both of you put under threat of redundancy and an objective selection carried out for the new combined role. This should have been run alongside a proper consultation as per my initial post.

From what you have told me I think you have strong grounds for an appeal and should that fail (which it probably will), a claim for unfair dismissal.

hassony77

Thanks

I will try and draft an appeal letter today and send it to them tomorrow (I have until Monday to appeal), so I should try and base the appeal on the two main points in your last post (flawed process and the lack of proper selection process)

with regards to your question, I would say we were at the same level (if anything I was more senior as my manager was the COO, while his was the production manager)

Pete111

I would do exactly that if I were you - they have dropped the ball in a big way re the consultation and the other manager should have been included.

Stick to the two main points 1) Not following proper and meaningful consultation process (see Acas website for full details here) and 2) a non existant selection process which resulted in a fundamentally unfair decision (again ACAS has guidelines on objective selection procedures)

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

hassony77

I had my appeal meeting today, I thought I put a good case forward, I kinda felt they were a bit uncomfortable, which is surely a good sign!

basically they admitted that they did approach the other manager before I was told about the redundancy, to "test the water", when I asked them why were change made to the QA procedure straight away, even before my consultation meeting, they said that business had to continue (but they weren't really convincing in their answer), and they said that they considered my position and his position and they decided that he would be more suitable to stay, but when i asked about a matrix or a comparison of some sort, HR told me that they didn't have one.

as expected, the appeal failed, and the decision is final, so i am pondering now what to do next

orangutangy

what have they offered you? any compromise? - if you feel you have grounds for more then talk to ACAS who launched a pre-ET service (for free) where they will try and resolve disputes prior to you bringing an ET, the employer has to agree to use the service though but it would be sily of them not too as they would have to do this conciliation if you raised an ET anyway, you may get somewhere this way, good luck