Pay Rise Cancelled for NHS staff

beccam

funguy wrote: »

Just as a follow on from the above conversation regarding doctors/nurses pay.....a better way is to look at take home pay on an hourly basis!

A recent audit by my friend (who is a local chartered accountant) at her client's 2007/8 accounts showed that on an hourly basis, the highest earners were managers, accountants and dentists. GPs pay were high but on an hourly basis was only 60-70% of the hourly rates of the above group. She reckons that over the next few years GP hourly pay will soon be near enough half of that of dentists and accountants and lawyers!.....she doesnt have any nurses on her books but looking at local going rates, a GP takes home approx 40% more than a community nurse practitioner.....not quite the 5x figure quoted above......

Though a community nurse practitioner would be on one of the higher bands of nursing pay.
The majority of nurses will be in band 5.....
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Band 5[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Point 17 £20,225
Point 18 £20,818
Point 19 £21,373
Point 20 £22,085
Point 21 £22,797
Point 22 £23,450
Point 23 £24,103
Point 24 £25,054
Point 25 £26,123
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]this being pay before tax, NI, super ann, NMC subscription, union subscription, parking fees etc etc. Also note that once you reach the top of this band after 8yrs of service you will stay at that point, band 6 jobs can be very hard to come by so long serving nurses are actually the worst off.
[/SIZE]

lana22

beccam wrote: »

[/b]


Though a community nurse practitioner would be on one of the higher bands of nursing pay.
The majority of nurses will be in band 5.....


[SIZE=-1]Band 5[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Point 17 £20,225[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 18 £20,818[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 19 £21,373[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 20 £22,085[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 21 £22,797[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 22 £23,450[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 23 £24,103[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 24 £25,054[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 25 £26,123[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]this being pay before tax, NI, super ann, NMC subscription, union subscription, parking fees etc etc. Also note that once you reach the top of this band after 8yrs of service you will stay at that point, band 6 jobs can be very hard to come by so long serving nurses are actually the worst off.[/SIZE]

Not really sure what the purpose of posting "before tax, NI" etc etc is? Everyone has these costs, no one gives a net salary when quoting annual income.

Also, please look up the cost of nmc fees compared to gmc fees, you might get a bit of a shock - It's £410 a year for gmc registration!

Factor in to that professional indemnity (imperative), student loans (which most nurses don't have), clothing (majority of nurses, especially band 5 get uniform provided, plus a tax relief for washing it), stethoscopes...need I go on?

To compare a band 5 nurse to a GP is also completely false, a community nurse practitioner is as close as you can get to a GP. Comparing a band 5 should be compared to a junior doctor, and then the comparison is quite favourable.

Please bear in mind here that we are comparing 2 completely different professions, with completely different levels of entry requirements, training, etc. Again if you calculate it per hour, then our salary doesn't look quite so hot. In some ways it's like comparing teachers pay to lawyers pay or something.

Nurses knew what the salary was before they joined (in comparison to junior doctors who have had a real term equivalent of 40% pay cut), and yes they should probably earn more. But the basis and argument for them earning more should not be "doctors earn more than us".

funguy

beccam wrote: »

[/b]


Though a community nurse practitioner would be on one of the higher bands of nursing pay.
The majority of nurses will be in band 5.....


[SIZE=-1]Band 5[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Point 17 £20,225[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 18 £20,818[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 19 £21,373[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 20 £22,085[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 21 £22,797[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 22 £23,450[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 23 £24,103[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 24 £25,054[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 25 £26,123[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]this being pay before tax, NI, super ann, NMC subscription, union subscription, parking fees etc etc. Also note that once you reach the top of this band after 8yrs of service you will stay at that point, band 6 jobs can be very hard to come by so long serving nurses are actually the worst off.[/SIZE]

Im not quite sure why you have qouted these figures....

I was commenting on community nurse practitioners as compared to GPs, lawyers, accountants etc.
The majority of nurses may be Band 5, as the majority of doctors will be trainee doctors ( not GPs or consultants) and the majority of accountants will not be senior chartered accountants. Therefore the pay is always lower for these groups than the senior nurses/accountants/doctors/lawyers we are talking about. Also pay is always quoted as pre-tax/NI/professional subscriptions etc....

funguy

PS : At our local teaching hospital the night nurse practitioners earn more than the junior doctor working the same shift with him/her on an hourly rate. Same at the weekend.

Im not sayng this is wrong because it probably reflects experience, responsibility etc etc....however it is easy to always point out wages favourably compared to another specific working group. Most jobs have salaries which reflect the responsibility, training and experience of the people in them. If a job is really easy and gets paid lots, why doesnt everyone do it? I would love to drive a Formula 1 car and get £1 million a race - i can drive a car so i would imagine it wouldnt be that difficult - its the same as comparing an air steward to a pilot flying a plane!! Theres lots involved in jobs that are not openly visable to others looking in!

macaque_2

beccam wrote: »

[/b]


Though a community nurse practitioner would be on one of the higher bands of nursing pay.
The majority of nurses will be in band 5.....


[SIZE=-1]Band 5[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Point 17 £20,225[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 18 £20,818[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 19 £21,373[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 20 £22,085[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 21 £22,797[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 22 £23,450[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 23 £24,103[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 24 £25,054[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Point 25 £26,123[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]this being pay before tax, NI, super ann, NMC subscription, union subscription, parking fees etc etc. Also note that once you reach the top of this band after 8yrs of service you will stay at that point, band 6 jobs can be very hard to come by so long serving nurses are actually the worst off.[/SIZE]

Nurses getting this whilst GPs are being paid £100-250k on top of their private work. It's a scandal.

Old_Slaphead

Just out of interest, how much should the "average" nurse be paid.

For that matter - what about the "average" teacher and the "average" police constable" ?

funguy

macaque wrote: »

Nurses getting this whilst GPs are being paid £100-250k on top of their private work. It's a scandal.

I think you are really not getting the picture here....The nurses salaries being quoted at BAND 5 nurses in a hospital! You cannot compare that to a GP salary - its like comparing a GP salary to the RBS director's salary - its not comparable. A GP surgery is a business as the above quoted £100K a year is pro-rata PRIOR to practice expenses - NOT TAKE HOME! plus im not sure what you mean by private GP work - insurance reports and medicals etc are included in that figure you quote above as it is done in the practice in practice time! I think you need to get your facts right!!

What about the nurse practitioners earning £50K in the community for 35hr weeks and their private work on top (starting salary as advertised in the GP magazine last month). Or the FY1 doctor earning £26K doing 56hr weeks in your local hospital....2 sides of every story....

beccam

I quoted the figures to show that this is what the majority of nurses will receive, that a nurse serving (like me for over 10yrs) will reach the top of this band and stay there as chances for a promotion to move into band 6 are very slim.
In a hospital setting you can have specialist nurses like those who are teaching nurses (CPR, infection control etc) on band 6, that is a handful of jobs in a very large hospital.
A doctor after 8yrs of service is highly unlikely to be still earning a junior doctor wage.

I know exactly what GMC membership etc costs for a doctor, I'm not stupid (believe it or not!) but considering NMC fees have virtually tripled over the last few years going from £70 odd for 3yrs to £76 per year and still no promises they won't rise considerably again and Union membership being anywhere between £12 and £20 per month it is valid to point these costs out.
As for uniform, if you're lucky you get a new one every 3 years (yes 3 years!!) we are expected to wear the same few sets of tunic and trousers for 3yrs. I've had to buy numerous new pairs of trousers since uniform issue ones have a tendency to rip, tear and generally fall apart!
I've just had to phone this morning and beg to get new uniforms as I've lost over 4stone in weight and the tunic is more of a tent now.....the nice lady says she can give me one new tunic but since its not 3yrs since my last lot thats all she can do! (great for my bills to wash that one every shift ready for the next day!)

I have stated clearly that I believe doctors (junior ones in particular) are not paid accordingly but you must also see that when I started as a nurse I started working with some JHO's who are now consultants, GP's, Staff grade regs etc etc and yes they are brilliant doctors who deserve this but if they were in a position of being paid less than £6K more than a newly qualified JHO I don't think they would be so happy.

I take a lot of responsibility on my shifts, I am responsible for not only myself but other staff on the ward, I have done further training and specialist practice courses to work in the area I do, I regularly advise doctors who are new to the area, I do procedures that these doctors don't know how to and often don't want to know how to do. They are not junior doctors they are SHO's who are most certainly earning a fair amount more than I am, no it is not about nurses pay vs doctors as of course doctors will rightfully receive a higher wage but that is not to say that the nurses are paid accordingly either.


Anyway all of the above is off topic bottom line is if a payrise is cancelled there will be very few staff left working on the wards!!!

jojo1964

ILW wrote: »

Another none job paid for by the taxpayer.

Exactly my thoughts, 3 years to produce a formula for a pay rise, what happened to union negotiation, i.e our members demand 6%, get offered 2% and settle somewhere in between.

funguy

I would agree with the above post that nurses dont get paid adequately for the job they do but theres no point in comparing their pay to a doctors pay in the same way that that there is no point in comparing an a dental nurses pay to a dentists pay or that of an air sterward/ess to a pilot.

At the end of the day, its a supply and demand thing with pay proportionate to grades required at school, years of study, postgraduate experience, responsibility of the job, hours of the job etc etc......Like i have always said, if you feel your job, regardless of what it is, is underpaid compared to another, then retrain, go through what the person in the other job went through and get paid accordingly - unfortunately you cannot train to do one job and then think you should be paid what another person in another job should be paid! (this is a general statement and not directed to the above poster).