Pay Rise Cancelled for NHS staff

lana22

macaque wrote: »

I could split hairs myself but I don't see any need to. You are trying to score points on the grounds that a minority do not fall into this category. As a response that is neither intelligent, relevant or even mature. The debate is about GPs earning between £100k and £250k. Such amounts are ridiculous when compared to nurses pay and totally peverse when you realise that many of these GPs are also doing private work on the side.

Find me a nurse who doesn't do agency shifts. Every nurse I know does.
A nurse does agency work and they're "hard working."
A doctor does locums and they're "greedy".

If it's such a cushty life, why aren't nurses all rushing in their droves to medical school?

Cleaver

lana22 wrote: »

Sadly not true any more! 100% banding (ie band 3, giving you £40k a year) has been illegal for a while. As is 80% banding.
The highest banding allowed is now 50%. This is becoming less and less common, with most people being "unbanded" for at least one rotation.
Lots of people are on 40% banding for one 4 month rotation, then unbanded for the other, giving them an income of around £25k per year.
I would say the vast majority earn £25-27k a year, with some earning £21k per year.

By the way "busy" (ie banded 2b 50% etc) is actually 56 hours average, with a large proportion of "antisocial hours" which means 80 hours some weeks.

Consider me corrected. Apologies, it's been a while since I worked in a role dealing with Doctor's salaries, and I forgot about the new EWTD rule that 'scrapped' the 2A banding. Time must have really changed over the past four years I imagine? The hospital I was doing some work for a few years ago (2004 ish) had around 200 doctors and around 100 of them were on 80%, around 80 were on 50% and just a handful earned less than that.

For the record I think good Doctors earn every penny, right up to the £100k+ salaries.

macaque_2

lana22 wrote: »

Find me a nurse who doesn't do agency shifts. Every nurse I know does.
A nurse does agency work and they're "hard working."
A doctor does locums and they're "greedy".

If it's such a cushty life, why aren't nurses all rushing in their droves to medical school?

I can't say I approve but I find it less shocking for a person on £30k to moonlight than someone on £150k.

The reason that nurses don't 'rush' to medical school is because they are not allowed in. Medical school places are rationed. Its a club run by the BMA. Do you honestly think that nurses prefer to work as skivvies on £30k? The medical profession is the last great stronghold of the class system.

lana22

macaque wrote: »

I can't say I approve but I find it less shocking for a person on £30k to moonlight than someone on £150k.

The reason that nurses don't 'rush' to medical school is because they are not allowed in. Medical school places are rationed. Its a club run by the BMA. Do you honestly think that nurses prefer to work as skivvies on £30k? The medical profession is the last great stronghold of the class system.

"Not allowed in"???

What planet are you living on! Nurses are free to apply to medical school, just like every one else in the country, provided they get in on academic merit.

How do you think you get a place at medical school? Have you ever tried getting in? I have and I can assure you it had nothing to do with the class system.

How offensive can you be calling nurses skivvies? They are professional people doing a skilled job. They chose to be nurses, because that's the career path they wanted to follow. People don't become nurses because some sort of invented class system keeps them out of medical school.

lana22

Cleaver wrote: »

Consider me corrected. Apologies, it's been a while since I worked in a role dealing with Doctor's salaries, and I forgot about the new EWTD rule that 'scrapped' the 2A banding. Time must have really changed over the past four years I imagine? The hospital I was doing some work for a few years ago (2004 ish) had around 200 doctors and around 100 of them were on 80%, around 80 were on 50% and just a handful earned less than that.

For the record I think good Doctors earn every penny, right up to the £100k+ salaries.

Things have changed a great deal, and are set to change even more from Aug 09. Sadly this means poorer training. I would gladly work the hours on call for the same money if it meant my education would benefit from it. I actually volunteered for free on-call shifts during my surgical job as I was unbanded and learnt precisely nothing without out of hours experience.

On top of this the free accomodation has been removed, without an increase in pay. (The accomodation was previously cited as a factor in the low basic salary of FY1s).

LillyJ

lana22 wrote: »

Things have changed a great deal, and are set to change even more from Aug 09. Sadly this means poorer training. I would gladly work the hours on call for the same money if it meant my education would benefit from it. I actually volunteered for free on-call shifts during my surgical job as I was unbanded and learnt precisely nothing without out of hours experience.

On top of this the free accomodation has been removed, without an increase in pay. (The accomodation was previously cited as a factor in the low basic salary of FY1s).

Whilst I agree with your plight, I think you have actually shot yourself in the foot there.
By agreeing to work for free on call, you are reducing the bargaining power you and your colleagues have with management/rota people. They aren't going to re-band you if you are going to do the work for free anyway.

Old_Slaphead

twirlypinky wrote: »

Just because the NHS has cost lots more money in the last 5 years, it doesn't mean it's a waste.


Please stop speculating and actually look into what you're talking about. The cost of healthcare has gone up sharply over the last decade due to all the advacements in treatments - this is good for patients, but bad for the bottom line.

I'm not disputing that improvements have been made - I said that the increase in output/efficiency is not commensurate with the vast sums pumped into the NHS (and I'm not saying it wasn't needed either). Costs have gone up sharply because suppliers have seen that NHS has vast sums to splash out - hence prices increase.

Just down the road from me there's a brand new sparkly hospital that's cost £300million - funded by very expensive PFI. As it's outsourced, maintenance bills will be huge. New buildings are great except that it will be paid for over 25years and the NHS won't own it a the end.

There have been a great many improvements but keyhole surgery and the like have/should have led to huge cost savings.

Are you seriously suggesting that waste is not a major problem ??

Evidence - the Gerry Robinson TV prog of a few months ago, vast budget overruns on computer systems, huge pay rise for Doctors a few years back (they apparently are paid double that paid in France), excessive use of agency staff, vast numbers of bureacrats/managers/management consultants, recent revelations in Staffs & Kent NHSs, shuffling A&E cases to other waiting rooms to get them off lists, keeping ambulances waiting so that targets can be met, rising cost of compensation for mistakes, withdrawal of NHS dentistry for millions of people, old ladies being left in corridors for hours on end etc etc....just a few more from newspapers...
http://www.nhssos.com/index.php/cut-the-waste/
http://www.politics.co.uk/news//economy/nhs-attacked-over-waste-money-agency-staff-$1258187.htm
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1545867/NHS-waste-thousands-on-doctor-interviews.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/apr/03/nhs.drugsandalcohol
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/5203040.stm
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/nhs-costs-up-but-output-dives-says-ons-544289.html
http://money.uk.msn.com/tax/articles/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4750505

I've not got first hand evidence of most of this but anecdotal evidence is plentyful. My sister works for NHS so I do hear the occasional horror story from her.

iltisman

I think the NHS needs bonuses rather than pay increases, based on survival rates this may make them be a bit more focused on the "customer".

macaque_2

lana22 wrote: »

"Not allowed in"???

What planet are you living on! Nurses are free to apply to medical school, just like every one else in the country, provided they get in on academic merit.

How do you think you get a place at medical school? Have you ever tried getting in? I have and I can assure you it had nothing to do with the class system.

How offensive can you be calling nurses skivvies? They are professional people doing a skilled job. They chose to be nurses, because that's the career path they wanted to follow. People don't become nurses because some sort of invented class system keeps them out of medical school.

Of course nurses are free to apply to medical school. Some even get accepted. The point I made was that many more would be training as doctors if the opportunies were given to them.

The phrase class system is not a reference to chinless wonders in plus 4s. Hospitals have retained hierarchies that would do credit to Victorian cotton mills.

I agree that nurses are not skivvies. So why do they get treated as such?

Cleaver

LillyJ wrote: »

Whilst I agree with your plight, I think you have actually shot yourself in the foot there.
By agreeing to work for free on call, you are reducing the bargaining power you and your colleagues have with management/rota people. They aren't going to re-band you if you are going to do the work for free anyway.

She hasn't shot herself in the foot. Volunteering to do shifts that gain experience and showing willing to learn and work will pay far more dividends, career wise and pay wise, in the long term than the pain in the short term. More doctors like that are needed IMHO.