when does employment cease

livewire600

this is currently under big debate

i am being made redundant and on my letter it states and i quote"your final day of emloyment is 31/03/2009"
it is not necessary for you to work your notice period and you will recieve a payment in lieu of notice

i am entitled to 3 months notice and my company have choosen to pay "payment in lieu of notice" what is my offical end date- is it 31/3/2009 (i think so) or 30/6/2009 which is 3 months later (hr have said)



what do you reckon?

getmore4less

I think it depends what you need the date for.

Benifits seem to asume you have been paid for the notice so they kick in at the later date.

Obligations to your cuurent epmployer at the earler date so you can get another job.

Compensation for the break of contract and redundancy the later date.(handy if it gives you another year service)

zzzLazyDaisy

Your employment ceases on 31st March. Your employer has chosen to pay PILON - payment in lieu of notice - which literally means that they are not giving you notice, but are paying you off for the notice period instead.

However as another poster has pointed out, for the purposes of JSA the PILON payment is deemed to cover you for lost wages over the next three months, so you won't be able to claim benefits until the PILON period expires, although you will be free to look for alternative emplyment.

livewire600

with it stating on every bit of paper work i have
"your final date of employment"
"your employment will end on"
"you are redundnt with effect from"- all stating the 31st march

its nothing to do with benefit claiming its for calculation of redundancy payment as there is a claus in place with states if your salary has changed in the last 12 months to a lesser figure (it has i went part time middle of april last year) redundancy calculation will also include your previous (in my case) full time salary.

so the date i am wanting it to be is 31st march-
my understanding is that payment in lieu of notice ceases your employment immediatly and the money is to compensate you for this and thats that you and the company are finished so too speak, where as if on garden leave you would be paid your salary and in my case employed until 30th june- is that right

zzzLazyDaisy

Yes, you have it in one. Your employment ceases on 31st March. That is your last day of employment. Any calculations for redundancy payment should be made up to that date. If your employer is refusing to comply with its own policies and procedures, you should seek the assistance of ACAS.

However do be aware that sometimes redundancy policies are discretionary rather than contractual, in which case they are not enforceable.

ceridwen

I think it would be helpful at this stage to have a suitable link - to a Govt website or similar - to clarify as to what date is to be taken into account when working out the "length of service" for redundancy payment purposes.

I would take it myself that my "length of service" was up to 30 June 2009 and my redundancy payment would be worked out on the basis of the length of time from the day I started work to 30 June inclusive - that 3 months notice period might be enough to bring O.P. up to a level where they could say they had 1 more years service.

I would be regarding the purpose of a notice period as not just being a length of time in which to search for another job before the salary stopped - but also as a length of time during which I still "owned" the job in effect and got all the benefits accruing thereto (including "length of service" for the purposes of working out redundancy pay on the one hand or how much pension I was entitled to on the other hand).

It is after all purely down to the employers decision that they have told the employee not to work the notice period. If the employee did work the notice period - then they would certainly be able to count the time up to 30 June as "length of service". So - twould be only logical that the employer wouldnt be due to benefit financially from telling someone NOT to work out their notice period. As I understand it - the reason why employers sometimes tell staff not to work out a notice period is because they fear that the soon-to-be ex-employee might be disruptive in some way if they did so.
So - a suitable link would be useful to see what the law says on this point.

zzzLazyDaisy

This is such a basic tenet of employment law that it would be difficult to find a link. Put simply, the employer is obliged to give notice. If the employer refuses to do this and terminates the employment without giving notice, it is a breach of contract, but the employment is still terminated on that date. By giving a payment in lieu of notice the employer is effectively paying compensation for the breach of contract, but this does not change the date of termination.

http://www.got-the-boot.com/law/law-01.htm

The above link explains the time limits for making a claim for unfair dismissal. The time limit is always three months, but as explained, if the employer gives actual notice the time limit runs from the date the notice expires. whereas if the employer terminates early and makes a payment in lieu of notice, the time limit runs from the date of the actual dismissal. In other words, in either case it is the actual termination date that triggers the right to make a claim, NOT the date that notice would have expired, if the required notice has not in fact been given.

I hope this clarifies things, and doesn't just muddy the waters even further!

livewire600

Im getting confused now (maybe that i only gave birth 13 weeks ago and have nappys on the brain) are we still saying then that my employment ceases on 31st march and i am nolonger an employee.
surely with them stating on everything my employment ceases, your last day of employment etc clearly means that everything terminates at this date being 31st march

i would have expected the letter to have said something along the lines of you last working day s 31st march and your employment will cease 30th june (3 months notice)- then i wouldnt/couldnt argue ie garden leave type thingy

aaaaaarhhhhhhhhhhhh my head hurts

having said all this the other twist to my story is infact i am on mat leave and the company i work for displaced all of us in my current job role as they needed to reduce the number by 100, they then made us apply for the new position (doing the same job) i didnt score enough points and therefore was not offered the new "position"

hmmmmm dont i have special protection being on mat leave shouldnt i have been offered one of these position without having to apply for it

ceridwen

Must confess I'm now feeling confused as well - so it aint just you O.P. - as to me that link just talks about what happens if it comes to unfair dismissal. In this case - we arent talking about an unfair dismissal claim - we're talking (correct me if I'm wrong O.P.) about what the "length of service" will be deemed to be for the purposes of calculating redundancy payment and, presumably, for any job pension there is as well.

If the "end date" was deemed to be the day one literally walks out the door - then it would seem a good idea to insist on working right up to the last day of notice period (working being defined as "being at the workplace, willing and able to do any work one is given";) ). Or - do employers have the right to have people physically escorted off the premises if they turn up for work during their notice period?

I would actually like to know the answer to this myself - as I have a long notice period applicable myself and would like to know whether I have to insist on turning up to work still throughout that notice period - in order to protect "length of service" and pension contributions due during that time.

Can anyone cast any further light on this please?
(I am just so hoping that I dont have to go into work during any notice period - and can just breathe a sigh of relief if my employer tells me not to. Really dont want to have to spend weeks going in and just sitting there to ensure I get full "payment" for that time in every sense of the word.)

(...goes off thinking to myself....."Crikey...there could come a time in my life when the police were called to deal with me...never thought I'd be at risk of that....")

ceridwen

Had a further thought. Wonder if you might find clarification somewheres on this site:

http://www.tuc.org.uk/tuc/rights_main.cfm

ie the TUC website.

O.P. - do come back and let us know if you find owt on/from there please.

Commonsense would seem to dictate that people wouldnt be in a position of HAVING to insist on working out their notice period - employers themselves wouldnt want to have people insisting on coming in still, whether they were wanted there or no...There MUST be something in law that lays down quite clearly whether employees retain full rights to all of their "pay" during a notice period.

very_berry

My understanding is that you'll have to first establish the effective date of termination. Usually this will be the date upon which an employee ceases work. Where the contract is terminated without the employee working out his or her notice, the effective date of termination is the date upon which the termination takes effect. So, if an employer makes a payment of wages in lieu of notice, the effective date of termination is not postponed (Where the employee is put on garden leave, the effective date of termination will be the date upon which the notice expires rather than that upon which the employee ceases working).

So, in summary, the key dates are:

• In relation to an employee whose contract of employment is terminated by notice, whether given by his or her employer or by the employee, it is the date on which that notice expires.
• In relation to an employee whose contract of employment is terminated without notice, it is the date on which the termination takes effect.
• In relation to an employee who is employed under a limited contract, where that contract expires without being renewed under the same contract, it is the date on which the termination takes effect (Employment Rights Act 1996, section 97(1)).

Hope this helps