Do you think we could have avoided recession if the Tories were in power?

JayScottGreenspan

ninky wrote: »

I don't think being able to buy Chicken McNuggets or being stuck at home watching the shopping channel is any kind of life. And to those suggesting simply getting rid of the benefits system, how would they then make the likes of the Chawners any richer than the shanty town dwellers of Africa?

What about a benefits system that helps people where help is needed, but stops benefits if people refuse to work simply out of choice.

Soon enough old man Chawner would find a job and the vicious cycle of chicken nuggets and worklessness would be broken.

bendix

ninky wrote: »

I don't think being able to buy Chicken McNuggets or being stuck at home watching the shopping channel is any kind of life. And to those suggesting simply getting rid of the benefits system, how would they then make the likes of the Chawners any richer than the shanty town dwellers of Africa?

With respect (he says through gritted teeth), if they can afford to buy Chicken McNuggets while sitting on their fat chuffs watching the Shopping Channel, they are not poor.

Agreed, it's no kind of life, but it's the life the Chawners and thousand like them have chosen. Lucky them to have the option. But poor? Poor, my a**e.

Noone is suggesting 'getting rid' of the benefits system (a nice manipulation of the argument, by the way, ninky). I think most would like to see it cut back and have more rigour applied to avoid these excesses.

The welfare system was originally designed to provide our most vulnerable members of society with a basic dignified living. Overhaul it to get rid of those taking the !!!!, while at the same time ensuring it is at a level which covers basic needs yet isnt so comfortable as to be a desirable lifestyle option, and everyone would be happy. Such a level would provide an existence your African slumdweller could only dream of.

JayScottGreenspan

a_rather_tall_man wrote: »

I didn't say I wouldn't vote for him or indeed any other candidate due to their persona, it's just that I'm realistic enough to know the political machine as it operates would crush someone like him very quickly. If you want to get to the top you can forget being 'nice and decent'. Harsh truth I'm afraid.

For someone so vulnerable to a crushing by the political machine he has risen to the upper echelons and survived remarkably intact. It's true he has image problems, though. A makeover and some nose hair trimmers and he'd probably be leading the Lib Dems right now.

I agree that it certainly is a pity that most people vote based on such arbitrary criteria as they do:
1) Image: how many people voted for Obama just because of what he looks like? Right result, wrong reason.
2) Random allegiances: "I'm voting Labour because my parents always voted Labour and I always vote Labour". "Do you know what their policies are?". "No...".

vivatifosi

bendix wrote: »

With respect (he says through gritted teeth), if they can afford to buy Chicken McNuggets while sitting on their fat chuffs watching the Shopping Channel, they are not poor.

Agreed, it's no kind of life, but it's the life the Chawners and thousand like it have chosen. Lucky them to have the option. But poor? Poor, my a**e.

I was talking to my Mum about this last night. I grew up in a council house and my Mum left school with no qualifications and worked as a cleaner to give me and my brother a better life. This is what neither of us can understand. Forget the money, forget the food or house, how can anyone set their aspirations so low that this is what they want for the rest of their life?

treliac

Teacher2301 wrote: »

No - the less well off in the UK are not poor - they are relatively poorer than some but my point is - have you ever seen real poverty? Not that sentimental photography with someone talking over it asking for money - I mean real poverty? Where people have nothing, no state benefit to fall back on, nothing! - Perhaps we do need Africa to make us feel rich.

Agreed. The 'poor' of the UK are not poor. No-one has to starve or freeze, with no food or without a roof over their head.

'Poverty' in the UK is about poverty of attitude, motivation, choice and discipline amongst people who have relinquished responsibility for their own lives and those of their children.

It's happened because it's been allowed to, actively supported in a lot of cases, and because it's the path of least resistance for those so inclined. It's now a lifestyle that's firmly ingrained in families with little or no other expectation.

bendix

The bottom line is, vivatifosi, people like this have no shame. It's curious, isnt it, how they are becoming media celebrities. It's almost as if this is a deliberate strategy on their part. The daughter is laughed at on X Factor, and her entire family rushes the stage to protest at Simon Callow. What better way to get on TV - a guaranteed freak show.

Then they're on a daytime chat show - more massmarket !!!!!!!!. Then it's newspaper stories about evictions for anti-social behaviour, and now this story. Did the intrepid journalist just find them out of thin air? Of course not - they're either on file as the nation's favourite fat loafer family at the tabloid press, or they approach the press with an easy story in exchange for a nice little earner.

It's like they are setting themselves up as the worst family in the UK - a source of pride to themselves.

And we - me top of the list - are fallen for it because, let's face it, seeing watching this grotesque bunch talk about their lives makes us feel better about ourselves.

Mea culpa.

cootambear

But the Tories are in power.

Teacher2301

treliac wrote: »

It's happened because it's been allowed to, actively supported in a lot of cases, and because it's the path of least resistance for those so inclined. It's now a lifestyle that's firmly ingrained in families with little or no other expectation.

Thanks - on many occassions during my work I hear 'I know my rights...' I'm sure you do, unfortunately not many know their responsibilities and where do young people get their ideas from?

treliac

Teacher2301 wrote: »

unfortunately not many know their responsibilities and where do young people get their ideas from?

A natural escalation of attitude. What do we have to look forward to when the next generation hits adulthood?

However, or so we read, teachers aren't allowed to suggest a child can be wrong, are they? Or is this far too simplistic a belief?

And, BTW, I don't see evidence of such political dogma at DS's school!

nickmason

on being poor - one of the biggest problems is that all politicians - or at least all parties - have accepted the argument that poverty is relative (but typically only within the UK - ie relative to each other, not relative to Africa for instance).

This is enormously corrosive; it has so many consequences:
1) One persons betterment pushes others "down".
2) Jealousy and envy become normal products of the "closed" system.
3a) The economic status of the country becomes irrelevant - as we are pitched against each other.
3b) Economic growth becomes meaningless.
4) We have no idea how to talk to Africa etc about poverty, because our linguistic concept is so different from the reality of absolute poverty.

I find it absolutely disgraceful that if, for example, I work hard to produce something and export it, which turns a profit, then I am effectively pushing others into official (relative) poverty - and then the government "resolves this" by taxing me and passing that to those who have not worked hard.

ETA: as most of you will know of me by now, I do not have any problem with taxation per se, or indeed redistribution.