Ooh err ... what a fine mess!

ChampagneCharlie

Hi Everyone

I posted here back last October when everything then seemed relatively simple, even with my convoluted affairs - which was to go straight to BR after the double whammy of my company failing and then being made redundant from the subsequent employment I secured to shore up my finances!

Anyway, since then I miraculously secured a half-decently paid job in January 09, which has changed the situation from an income point of view, but not the overall picture methinks. During this time, of course, my debts have continued to spiral upwards, so I am once again returning to this forum for some final advice, please, before I go bust.

This is a very long thread for which I apologise ...

First things first, here's my SOA:

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet
Household Information

Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 2
Number of cars owned.................... 1

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 3500
Partners monthly income after tax....... 400
Benefits................................ 0
Other income............................ 300
Total monthly income.................... 4200

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 1350
Secured loan repayments................. 360
Hire Purchase (HP) repayments........... 0
Rent.................................... 0
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 123
Electricity............................. 150
Gas..................................... 10
Oil..................................... 245
Water rates............................. 58
Telephone (land line)................... 50
Mobile phone............................ 100
TV Licence.............................. 13
Satellite/Cable TV...................... 0
Internet Services....................... 20
Groceries etc. ......................... 600
Clothing................................ 100
Petrol/diesel........................... 560
Road tax................................ 30
Car Insurance........................... 120
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 150
Car parking............................. 20
Other travel............................ 25
Childcare/nursery....................... 50
Other child related expenses............ 50
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 65
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 60
Buildings insurance..................... 125
Contents insurance...................... 30
Life assurance ......................... 40
Other insurance......................... 20
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 35
Haircuts................................ 30
Entertainment........................... 25
Holiday................................. 25
Emergency fund.......................... 50
Child allowances/pocketmoney............ 35
Child maintenance....................... 75
Subscriptions - clubs................... 20
Subscriptions - magazines............... 10
Total monthly expenses.................. 4829

Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 300000
Shares and bonds........................ 0
Car(s).................................. 1000
Other assets............................ 1000
Total Assets............................ 302000

Secured & HP Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Mortgage...................... 325000...(1350).....0
Secured Debt.................. 20000....(360)......0<
Business loan..................93000.....-.........0
Total secured & HP debts...... 438000....-.........-

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Barclays overdraft.............1000......0.........0
Farm account...................2158......0.........0
NatWest Mastercard.............8045......0.........0
Egg Visa.......................8685......0.........0
Cahoot Visa....................5384......0.........0
Barclaycard....................4148.22...0.........0
Total unsecured debts..........49420.22..0.........-

Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 4,200
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 4,829
Available for debt repayments........... -629
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 0
Amount short for making debt repayments. -629
Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 302,000
Total HP & Secured debt................. -438,000
Total Unsecured debt.................... -49,420.22
Net Assets.............................. -185,420.22

As is clear, I am in a zero-equity situation, and I'm pretty confident that my house is worth even less now. The overall financial situation is dire to say the least, bit like RBS!:eek:

Before I pose any questions to the forum, it would be useful to describe my domestic situation and some background info.

I live together with my wife and two young children (8 & 3) in her house (registered in her name & always has been, before you ask!). I also have another son aged 13 by my first marriage to whom I pay maintenance to his step-father and some pocket money allowance directly to him as he doesn't live with me. I am also meant to be paying school fees for him but have had to let those drop - his step-father has very kindly stepped in here but on the understanding that I will pay him back at some stage (gulp).

I have my own house in Wales that I let to my mother and is the property equity I show here in the SOA as my personal asset. (The original plan was to sell in 2006 for around £500k, clear all the debt etc and start again. Unfortunately the davastating floods prevented any sale - the house was 3" deep - and thereafter its been impossible to shift it in the normal way through agents, probably because a river runs thru the garden! Hence these problems ...) My mother runs a B&B from this property and I let her off any rent as her income is minimal, she has no savings and she manages, just, on her state pension & what she makes from the b&b. I pay for repairs when necessary though of late this hasn't been possible.


IMHO, if we hadn't all been experiencing collective, national & global financial meltdown I'd have been bounced into the bankruptcy courts well before now. As it is, I think I have been exceptionally lucky to have staved off the creditors since October. However, the mortgage on my house expires in April and there's fat chance I'll be allowed to re-finance it, even if there were mortages being offered!

Even though I have come to some ridiculous pro temps settlements with my unsecured creditors (£1/mth repayments in one case!!), I am convinced that Barclays are going to take me to court regarding my outstanding business loan of £93k.

On top of all this I recently received a demand from the IR for £2500 relating to directors' loans, so that will trigger legal action when that becomes overdue if anything will.

If you are still reading - sorry for the length of this - I have some final questions that I hope someone can help me with.

a) Can someone review my SOA? For instance I haven't put the IR bill on as I beleive its inadmissable on a BR petition. Is there anything else I should include/delete?

b) My OH has sold assets to keep us as a family shiny side up since my own financial situation has lurched from crisis to desperation and back again. Should I include sums to repay her in my SOA? Now I'm earning again I'd like to do so.

c) What problems could I expect from the OR with this scenario? Its not straightforward & I'm expecting the worst ...

d) Can I claim any respite on behalf of my semi-dependent mother? Once my house in Wales has been repossessed/seized/liquidated she will be entirely my responsibility and without any income at all except for state benefits.

e) Apart from being advertsied in the local paper and the LG, am I obliged to notify my employers once made BR? I'm also a district councillor, which I'm assuming I will have to retire from.

I thinks that's enough from me to be getting on with. Again, my profuse apologies for clogging up this thread with so much crap from me, but I could really use some of the excellent advice that is regularly dispensed here.

If it would be easier to speak, please PM me.

Best

CC.

fiveyearplan

ChampagneCharlie wrote: »

Hi Everyone

I posted here back last October when everything then seemed relatively simple, even with my convoluted affairs - which was to go straight to BR after the double whammy of my company failing and then being made redundant from the subsequent employment I secured to shore up my finances!

Anyway, since then I miraculously secured a half-decently paid job in January 09, which has changed the situation from an income point of view, but not the overall picture methinks. During this time, of course, my debts have continued to spiral upwards, so I am once again returning to this forum for some final advice, please, before I go bust.

This is a very long thread for which I apologise ...

First things first, here's my SOA:

Statement of Affairs and Personal Balance Sheet
Household Information

Number of adults in household........... 2
Number of children in household......... 2
Number of cars owned.................... 1

Monthly Income Details
Monthly income after tax................ 3500
Partners monthly income after tax....... 400
Benefits................................ 0 list CHB here
Other income............................ 300
Total monthly income.................... 4200

Monthly Expense Details
Mortgage................................ 1350
Secured loan repayments................. 360
Hire Purchase (HP) repayments........... 0
Rent.................................... 0
Management charge (leasehold property).. 0
Council tax............................. 123
Electricity............................. 150
Gas..................................... 10
Oil..................................... 245
Water rates............................. 58
Telephone (land line)................... 50 phone including mobile is usually £60 maximum
Mobile phone............................ 100
TV Licence.............................. 13
Satellite/Cable TV...................... 0
Internet Services....................... 20 must be needed for work or children's homework and still sometimes isn't allowed
Groceries etc. ......................... 600
Clothing................................ 100
Petrol/diesel........................... 560 this is high
Road tax................................ 30
Car Insurance........................... 120 whoa! Is this for one car?
Car maintenance (including MOT)......... 150 ditto
Car parking............................. 20
Other travel............................ 25
Childcare/nursery....................... 50
Other child related expenses............ 50 what is this?
Medical (prescriptions, dentist etc).... 65 seems high is there a medical condition?
Pet insurance/vet bills................. 60 very high I think £20 is usually allowed
Buildings insurance..................... 125 High
Contents insurance...................... 30
Life assurance ......................... 40
Other insurance......................... 20
Presents (birthday, christmas etc)...... 35 not usually allowed but leave in and see
Haircuts................................ 30
Entertainment........................... 25 not allowed
Holiday................................. 25 £50
Emergency fund.......................... 50 not allowed
Child allowances/pocketmoney............ 35 not allowed
Child maintenance....................... 75 is this by court order
Subscriptions - clubs................... 20 what is this?
Subscriptions - magazines............... 10 is this for work
Total monthly expenses.................. 4829

Assets
Cash.................................... 0
House value (Gross)..................... 300000
Shares and bonds........................ 0
Car(s).................................. 1000
Other assets............................ 1000
Total Assets............................ 302000

Secured & HP Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Mortgage...................... 325000...(1350).....0
Secured Debt.................. 20000....(360)......0<
Business loan..................93000.....-.........0
Total secured & HP debts...... 438000....-.........-

Unsecured Debts
Description....................Debt......Monthly...APR
Barclays overdraft.............1000......0.........0
Farm account...................2158......0.........0
NatWest Mastercard.............8045......0.........0
Egg Visa.......................8685......0.........0
Cahoot Visa....................5384......0.........0
Barclaycard....................4148.22...0.........0
Total unsecured debts..........49420.22..0.........-

Monthly Budget Summary
Total monthly income.................... 4,200
Expenses (including HP & secured debts). 4,829
Available for debt repayments........... -629
Monthly UNsecured debt repayments....... 0
Amount short for making debt repayments. -629
Personal Balance Sheet Summary
Total assets (things you own)........... 302,000
Total HP & Secured debt................. -438,000
Total Unsecured debt.................... -49,420.22
Net Assets.............................. -185,420.22

As is clear, I am in a zero-equity situation, and I'm pretty confident that my house is worth even less now. The overall financial situation is dire to say the least, bit like RBS!:eek:

Before I pose any questions to the forum, it would be useful to describe my domestic situation and some background info.

I live together with my wife and two young children (8 & 3) in her house (registered in her name & always has been, before you ask!). You will probably be deemed to have a beneficial interest in this property I also have another son aged 13 by my first marriage to whom I pay maintenance to his step-father and some pocket money allowance directly to him as he doesn't live with me. Maybe you should say this pocket money is his school dinners I am also meant to be paying school fees for him but have had to let those drop - his step-father has very kindly stepped in here but on the understanding that I will pay him back at some stage (gulp). You probably wouldn't be allowed to pay school fees unless he was in his GCSE year.

I have my own house in Wales that I let to my mother and is the property equity I show here in the SOA as my personal asset. (The original plan was to sell in 2006 for around £500k, clear all the debt etc and start again. Unfortunately the davastating floods prevented any sale - the house was 3" deep - and thereafter its been impossible to shift it in the normal way through agents, probably because a river runs thru the garden! Hence these problems ...) My mother runs a B&B from this property and I let her off any rent as her income is minimal, she has no savings and she manages, just, on her state pension & what she makes from the b&b. I pay for repairs when necessary though of late this hasn't been possible. This will probably have to be sold but maybe the floods will work to your advantage??


IMHO, if we hadn't all been experiencing collective, national & global financial meltdown I'd have been bounced into the bankruptcy courts well before now. As it is, I think I have been exceptionally lucky to have staved off the creditors since October. However, the mortgage on my house expires in April and there's fat chance I'll be allowed to re-finance it, even if there were mortages being offered!

Even though I have come to some ridiculous pro temps settlements with my unsecured creditors (£1/mth repayments in one case!!), I am convinced that Barclays are going to take me to court regarding my outstanding business loan of £93k.

On top of all this I recently received a demand from the IR for £2500 relating to directors' loans, so that will trigger legal action when that becomes overdue if anything will.

If you are still reading - sorry for the length of this - I have some final questions that I hope someone can help me with.

a) Can someone review my SOA? For instance I haven't put the IR bill on as I beleive its inadmissable on a BR petition. Is there anything else I should include/delete? It would be included in your BR

b) My OH has sold assets to keep us as a family shiny side up since my own financial situation has lurched from crisis to desperation and back again. Should I include sums to repay her in my SOA? Now I'm earning again I'd like to do so. You wouldn't be able to pay her back. If you live as a couple you shouldn't feel bad that she has had to do this because that is give and take in a relationship. You wouldn't expect her to pay you back for paying all the bills would you?

c) What problems could I expect from the OR with this scenario? Its not straightforward & I'm expecting the worst ...

d) Can I claim any respite on behalf of my semi-dependent mother? Once my house in Wales has been repossessed/seized/liquidated she will be entirely my responsibility and without any income at all except for state benefits. Not really sure about this one. If you sold the house would she come live with you?

e) Apart from being advertsied in the local paper and the LG, am I obliged to notify my employers once made BR? No, unless your job is of a financial nature or you give financial advice or a few other jobs or if it is in your contract. I'm also a district councillor, which I'm assuming I will have to retire from. Probably

I thinks that's enough from me to be getting on with. Again, my profuse apologies for clogging up this thread with so much crap from me, but I could really use some of the excellent advice that is regularly dispensed here. Thats what we're here for.

If it would be easier to speak, please PM me.

Best

CC.

Hi and welcome back Charlie!

So_Sad_Angel

Hi CC

Gosh a lot there!!!!

Anyway 5yp has covered most but I can`t seem to reconcile the low council tax £123 with the electric £150 & oil £245 a month.

My last oil bill for a large (14 acre farm ) & buildings was £500 for 4 months & my CT was massive ( band G) £250 a month!!!!!!!....not sure how a VERY low CT bill can relate to such a very high utility bill...esp when water rates at £58 would suggest modest 4 bed detached ??

Can you clarify as the numbers don`t quite seem right??

Its a tough process & if you take the BR step then the OR will probe into these areas.

If you can bring your SOA within your income then all you can lose is the extra property in Wales (I assume you want to keep the family home). Sadly any OR will have no choice but to liquidate any asset such as the Welsh property.

Chin up,

Angiex

betterlatethannever

Totally agree with the other posters.
You need to be reasonable and £1800 a year for car maintenance is more than the cars worth and more than the cost of buying a new car.

It might be a good idea to start keeping receipts for stuff, especially petrol and heating.
I still doubt though, that any OR would allow those amounts.

How many is this for as your groceries are v high too? Edit: just seen how many

ChampagneCharlie

Hi 5YP, SSA & BLTN

Thanks for the responses! Not quite sure how to effectively respond to all your queries at once but here goes:

Car costs: We have one, old Volvo but I have stupidly been including the likely costs of another vehicle as I am currently borrowing one off a friend to get to work in. My wife does 20k pa and my monthly mileage is already hitting 2k going to Northampton & back daily.

House utility bills: Yes they do seem high but I swear we spend £3000 on heating oil pa. It might have something to do with my wife's appallingly thirsty AGA which she uses to cook with in her catering business. The electric is also reflective of the farm outbuildings that are variously occupied and use mostly halogen lights.

Child maintenance: Yes, as was my commitment to pay school fees. Dont know where this leaves me actually...

Groceries/the weekly 'shop': We habitually spend between £100-140 per week either at Tesco or Aldi to feed 4 (sometimes 5) of us.

Medical: yes this is high, I will adjust.

Other child related expenses: I put that amount in to see if it would wash. We probably do spend that amount in reality as the kids tend to chip away whatever we do or say!

Pet insurance/ vet bills etc: yes that's about right to keep my wife's horse and son's pony shod etc.

Subs - clubs: After school clubs, pony club, etc. Not night clubs!!

Subs - mags: CLA mag, and Hello /The Week / Spectator.

Property interest: 5YP also mentioned that I would be deemed to have an interest in this property (not the Welsh one). I took independent legal advice on this one (because it is of critical importance to my OH apart from anything else) from an insolvency sol and he wrote to say that since my OH had always owned this in her own right, & I had not made any material contributions to the place, this would not be taken into account.

Incidentially, my OH & I have always been at pains to keep our affairs separate, partly to protect ourselves from an extremely predatory ex-wife and partly because I set up my own business and we wanted to be safe in a worst case scenario (now we'll know!).

Welsh floods: how could they work to my advantage??

I think that's it ...

Best

CC.

So_Sad_Angel

CC,

I think you need to call & get an appointment with Nat Business Debtline. (see MSE toolbar for number) ...their advice is free ( please do not pay for advice) you need it to be totally impartial. Your SOA needs to be as tight as possible if you take the BR route & TBH you will keep your home & lifestyle ...just the debt/unencumbered Welsh property will go. Your explanations are exactly what the OR will require & do seem consistant however I still think the CT seems very low.

Do make sure that your job is not effected by BR as some can be.

Please updates on next steps etc...this place is ideal for off-loading those worries that appear along the way.

Angiex

fiveyearplan

ChampagneCharlie wrote: »

Hi 5YP, SSA & BLTN

Thanks for the responses! Not quite sure how to effectively respond to all your queries at once but here goes:

Car costs: We have one, old Volvo but I have stupidly been including the likely costs of another vehicle as I am currently borrowing one off a friend to get to work in. My wife does 20k pa and my monthly mileage is already hitting 2k going to Northampton & back daily.

House utility bills: Yes they do seem high but I swear we spend £3000 on heating oil pa. It might have something to do with my wife's appallingly thirsty AGA which she uses to cook with in her catering business. The electric is also reflective of the farm outbuildings that are variously occupied and use mostly halogen lights. If thats what you pay then that is however I wouldn't mention that it is high because she uses it for business yet only contributes £400 per month - is the business viable? The OR won't see it that way.

Child maintenance: Yes, as was my commitment to pay school fees. Dont know where this leaves me actually... but is it from a court order - if so fine if not you may not be able to pay it.

Groceries/the weekly 'shop': We habitually spend between £100-140 per week either at Tesco or Aldi to feed 4 (sometimes 5) of us. That should be fine.

Medical: yes this is high, I will adjust.

Other child related expenses: I put that amount in to see if it would wash. We probably do spend that amount in reality as the kids tend to chip away whatever we do or say! you are allowed a certain amount per child per week for activities though not sure of the exact amount.

Pet insurance/ vet bills etc: yes that's about right to keep my wife's horse and son's pony shod etc. OUCH - a horse (and most likely a pony) is an asset and could be sold so I would take it off the SOA!!!

Subs - clubs: After school clubs, pony club, etc. Not night clubs!! As mentioned above

Subs - mags: CLA mag, and Hello /The Week / Spectator. No, wouldn't be allowed

Property interest: 5YP also mentioned that I would be deemed to have an interest in this property (not the Welsh one). I took independent legal advice on this one (because it is of critical importance to my OH apart from anything else) from an insolvency sol and he wrote to say that since my OH had always owned this in her own right, & I had not made any material contributions to the place, this would not be taken into account. Oh, I thought you had been paying all the bills, maintenance and upkeep - that would be a different story. I'd take a second opinion for peace of mind.

Incidentially, my OH & I have always been at pains to keep our affairs separate, partly to protect ourselves from an extremely predatory ex-wife and partly because I set up my own business and we wanted to be safe in a worst case scenario (now we'll know!). I hope it has worked!

Welsh floods: how could they work to my advantage?? If the OR deemed it not beneficial to sell?

I think that's it ...

Best

CC.

I'm just looking at this as an OR would and how I have seen things work from people posting their experiences on here. I am not trying to criticize. It is best if you are forewarned of anything that could happen. As for the horse - we have seen 2 or 3 on here and unlike dogs or cats they are seen as an asset and the OR will want to sell it. So if it belongs to your wife take all expenses of it off your SOA, better safe than sorry.

Lensman_2

LOL Champagne Charlie. The heartiest welcome to this forum to you.

I celebrate your eternal optimism. It is a quality that shines through your posts. And it made me laugh. That in now way belittles your situation. I just see Terry Thomas' gappy grin poking out between the lines of your posts.

I also wish you the very best of luck getting that SOA past the Official Receiver

Welcome on board mate. I have a feeling that something will come your way to pull you out of this before it gets too bad. Hopefully I am right - but if not we will be going through the long haul together. In fact, if we do - I will treat you to a Sh*t Happens tee shirt in about 18 months time.

Stick around and keep us posted.
All the best (ATB)
Jim

ChampagneCharlie

Thanks to you all, very much!!!:T

5YP: How do you cut n'paste? It would be much easier to reply individually to you.

Lensman: I'm pleased I'm making you laugh! Not sure that was my intention but we've somehow got to see the bright side haven't we? As Terry Thomas might say about my/our situation: "Hard cheese!". I'm bracing myself for the mangle at any rate and I'm glad I have you as a travelling companion, so to speak.

I'm going to turn in now but I'll be back posting the next episode/chapter as soon as poss.

ATB

CC

fiveyearplan

ChampagneCharlie wrote: »

5YP: How do you cut n'paste? It would be much easier to reply individually to you.

You can click on the quote button or if you want to pm me click on private messages at the top of the screen. To cut and paste ctrl x to cut, ctrl v to paste.

ChampagneCharlie

Thanks for the advice - I'll try that.

Charlie