Rail extension tickets and Conditions of Carriage discrepancy

railrider

Well, not a discrepancy as such, but something that rail operators seem to take no notice of..

I wish to make a trip to Peterborough from London King's Cross.
I already have a season ticket between Welwyn Garden City and King's Cross.
Therefore, it makes sense to purchase an extension ticket for the journey from WGC to Peterborough.

Now, this would be no problem, but I also wish to make use of a fast train (either National Express East Coast or Fast Capital Connect) which doesn't call at WGC.

In the Conditions of Carriage, condition 19 states:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover
the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Now, the staff at the ticket offices (both NXEC and FCC) are claiming they will refuse to issue me an extension ticket if they know I'm going to take a train that doesn't call at WGC. I've presented to them what condition 19 says, and they seem to want to ignore it claiming:

a) Condition 19b is a good enough reason NOT to issue me a ticket.
It's an OR condition, i.e. a, b OR c, not an AND condition. But they continue to give a stubborn attitude and refuse to accept this. Even the managers agreed when I asked to speak to them.

b) Condition 19b has been put in to protect NXEC, as they won't make any revenue from my ticket purchases
Sorry, but this is not my problem, nor is it an issue if I'm satisfying condition 19c.

What are other people's views on this? If I have a season ticket, should I be able to travel on a FCC service (which doesn't call at WGC), or an NXEC service by purchasing an extension ticket?

It's not even like I'm bending the rules - the Conditions of Carriage CLEARLY state that my combination of tickets would be valid.

Livingthedream

I'm not to sure as I was alway lead to believe that the train had to stop at that station. The only advice I can give is write a lettter to NXEC or FCC asking them the question and see what reply you get.

I would also post this question on a dedicated rail forum aswell, as somebody there I'm sure will know alot more about the rules than me try this one UKrail

dzug1

Maybe your mistake is to call it an extension ticket - it isn't. It's a separate ticket.

railrider

dzug1 wrote: »

Maybe your mistake is to call it an extension ticket - it isn't. It's a separate ticket.

Valid point!

I'm also reluctant to ask in a train forum - there are many employees of rail companies browsing them who, if like the ticket office staff, can't seem to be able to read, or deliberately ignore the important and key phrases for their own convenience.
I've spent enough time arguing with them in person, already!

Regardless of what you (as in all you forumers) thought was possible or not possible.. do you agree that the CoCs clearly state that my combination would be perfectly valid?

omelette451

railrider wrote: »

Regardless of what you (as in all you forumers) thought was possible or not possible.. do you agree that the CoCs clearly state that my combination would be perfectly valid?

Yes I do. In fact I'm sure there was a thread here recently where someone said they do it all the time. I'm not sure where but I think it was somewhere in the north.

Perhaps you could write to National Rail and ask them to clarify it? Then when they do you can ask them to clarify it in turn to the NX station manager at King's Cross.

In the meantime just get the ticket you want by telling them you're getting the slow train, then hop on the fast one and let the Train Manager challenge it if he dares.

ticketcollector

The 'split tickets' rule is a complicated one and different people have been trained up in different ways on it. (even in the same company).

You have a season ticket, (which is NOT an oyster card), issued by FCC (I guess) from WGC to KGX.
You also will have another ticket from PBO to WGC. (its not an extension ticket, its a completely new ticket.)

19 a - does not apply as they are not zonal tickets (Underground).
19 b - Could apply if you got on a train from PBO that stopped at WGC.
19 c - DOES APPLY as one of your tickets is a SEASON TICKET, and the other one is NOT

Remember NXEC gets 9% of all tickets sold at PBO anyway, as they operate the station.

What I would do is carry a copy of the NCoC with you, (it is a franchise requirement that copies of the NCoC are able to got free of charge).
I would also write to FCC customer services and ask them to clarify the rules and also ask them for a letter confirming that rule 19c is acceptable to your circumstances.

The ticket office also has to sell you what you ask it to sell you unless they have reasonable suspicion that fraud is/will take place. So if you asked for a Glasgow to Edinburgh ticket at Peterborough they would have to sell it to you.

gner_ex

omelette451 wrote: »

Yes I do. In fact I'm sure there was a thread here recently where someone said they do it all the time. I'm not sure where but I think it was somewhere in the north.

Perhaps you could write to National Rail and ask them to clarify it? Then when they do you can ask them to clarify it in turn to the NX station manager at King's Cross.

In the meantime just get the ticket you want by telling them you're getting the slow train, then hop on the fast one and let the Train Manager challenge it if he dares.

I think it was me. As ticketcollector has said, it is perfectly valid to do thus.

Under ORCATS, I would suggest that NXEC gets a tiny portion of Welwyn-Peterborough tickets' revenue, as would NXEA and XC (valid via Cambridge).

Can I suggest that to avoid confrontations with ticket office staff (who, remember, are not trained in ticket validity - they are only trained in how to operate an avantix machine) you purchase all your tickets online, and collect from the fastticket machines at Welwyn.

If you have the names of the errant staff (I presume at WGC station) please feel free to PM and I will have a word with the right person.

HOWEVER - Do you have a Network railcard? If so then instead of Welwyn-Peterborough (£23.90) get Welwyn-Huntingdon with a network railcard discount (£13 without, £8.60 but subject to £10 minimum fare mon-fri), and Huntingdon-Peterborough (5.00). In each case I have given the off-peak day return fare. It is perfectly permissible to get the above tickets to use with your season, to travel any operator with no need to stop at Welwyn or Huntingdon.

IMPORTANT NOTE - You can get a cheaper Welwyn-Peterborough ticket for 14.00 that is valid on FCC only. If you get this ticket (to use with your season ticket) then you CAN go non-stop through Welwyn but you CANNOT use NXEC, NXEA, XC or Hull Trains.

AP

Your combination of tickets is perfectly valid under the provision of Condition 19c of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, as long as the Welwyn - P'bro ticket is a single or day return, etc.

Ticket office staff must sell you the ticket that you asked for. They can only advise you that the ticket may not be valid on any trains that you board from the station, but they cannot refuse to sell you a ticket which does not start from the station where you are. It will be your problem if you are then charged a penalty fare on the train.

E.g. I can go to the ticket office at my local station (Sheffield) and ask for a return from, say Glasgow to Edinburgh if I want. It's up to me if I want to throw the ticket into the bin afterwards but the ticket office staff has no right not to sell me the ticket, other than telling me that it is not going to be valid from any trains departing from Sheffield station.

dzug1

gner_ex wrote: »

HOWEVER - Do you have a Network railcard? If so then instead of Welwyn-Peterborough (£23.90) get Welwyn-Huntingdon with a network railcard discount (£13 without, £8.60 but subject to £10 minimum fare mon-fri), and Huntingdon-Peterborough (5.00). In each case I have given the off-peak day return fare. It is perfectly permissible to get the above tickets to use with your season, to travel any operator with no need to stop at Welwyn or Huntingdon.

.

I'm a bit surprised that this is so (season ticket to ordinary at Welwyn, fine, but ordinary to ordinary at Huntingdon ???) but 19c seems to allow it. I wonder if it's just badly phrased or deliberate, and if the latter what's the logic behind it?

Altarf

Allowing you to use more than one ticket with a season ticket is deliberate "19(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket ... or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not." However I suspect that it was included for other circumstances.

I assume the logic is to allow you to travel from A to D on a non-stop train when you have a season ticket for B to C, by buying tickets for A to B and C to D. However the phrasing also lets you travel from B to E on a non-stop train by buying tickets for C to D and D to E to go with your B to C season ticket.

To allow the A to D scenario but not the B to E, you would need horribly complicated language, so given the number of people who will actually use it for B to E they probably just decided to live with the "abuse" allowed by the simpler phrasing.

gner_ex

dzug1 wrote: »

I'm a bit surprised that this is so (season ticket to ordinary at Welwyn, fine, but ordinary to ordinary at Huntingdon ???) but 19c seems to allow it. I wonder if it's just badly phrased or deliberate, and if the latter what's the logic behind it?

I have been told off the record that it wasn't what they intended to do - however any rewrite to NRCOC will be a few years away - so we can all make use of it until then.

If you really know your stuff, the savings are substantial because of 19C - especially when you are doing a day trip to somewhere where there is no CDR price only an SVR.