Public sector monster needs to be tamed

donaldtramp

Georgie4,

I agree totally as someone who works in the public sector and could earn FAR more in the private sector , most of us earn below average national wage and have anything but gold plated pensions

mrstinchcombe,

Pensions is no longer "gold plated" either. Single accrual rate of 1/70 for a final salary scheme where you pay in 9.5% of your earnings isnt fantastic

These are perfect examples of why the Public sector needs taken down a peg.

YOU GUYS DO HAVE A GOLD PLATED PENSION!! And you're in management Georgie? And you don't understand this? What chance do we have?
I don't want to hear any rubbish about being poorly paid either. There are millions of private sector workers in this country with no pension provision never mind one backed by the government!
You don't even realise that your pension is gold plated! That really annoys me and millions of taxpayers.
The private sector pensions aren't directly topped up by the taxpayer and guaranteed by the taxpayer.
You might pay in 9.5% but I'll wager that the taxpayer is paying into YOUR pension almost double that.(my local Council pays nearly treble the contributions) Yet you guys continue to bleat on about being hard done by and how nasty and better paid the private sector is.
I can't wait for the pension reforms that are overdue. I'll wager that will be the only way you guys are going to realise what the private sector pensions are actually worth.
It is like banging your head on a brick wall.
Does anyone in the public sector understand the liabilities that are being built up for the country because of your pensions? It is 10s of billions of pounds.

donaldtramp

Georgie,

don't even get me started on the governments use of the civil service to try out how far they can bend employment law - as we work for the government they seem to think our rights don't matter !!!

Bend employment law? Are you having a laugh?
Most Councils I've came across (in fact all that I know off) are protected by 1970s style unions. This is the only area of employment where these out of date unions survive.
How typical of a public sector employee bleating about the "nasty" civil service "bending" employment law. Haven't heard that before! Get the union onto it Georgie!
The only employer where if cost savings need to be made or a department is no longer required (redundancies needed) everyone goes on strike! Only in the public sector.
In the private sector it lay offs or businesses fold. Doesn't matter in the public sector though does it? You can always just leach some more money from the taxpayer eh???

donaldtramp

I am in a management position with huge levels of responsibility and 37 staff to manage for under £25k - I'd like to see how you think that compares favourably with the private sector !

Huge levels of responsibility eh?
Try saying that to the people who work in many sectors of the private sector in this climate.
I'll wager a great deal of them would give their eye teeth to only have "huge levels of responsibility" like you.:rolleyes:
In the private sector businesses;
- are going bankrupt, impossible in the public sector, that is unless you guys take the full country down in the future due to the liabilities the country has built up on your behalf.
- are laying of thousands of people. This does not happen on anywhere near the scale in the private sector (because of the unions and government money
- take daily decisions that are literally make or break for businesses. No business, no money coming in, people lose jobs, homes and livelihoods.

Generali

donaldtramp wrote: »

In the private sector businesses;
- are going bankrupt, impossible in the public sector, that is unless you guys take the full country down in the future due to the liabilities the country has built up on your behalf.

I'm not a fan of Big Government. In the interests of accuracy I would like to point out that Local Government pensions are fully funded, it's just Central Government employees for whom the £1,000,000,000,000 current liability for future pensions has no provision and is held off balance sheet.

donaldtramp

In the interests of accuracy I would like to point out that Local Government pensions are fully funded,

Yup, final salary indexed linked local government pensions are fully funded due to the contributions of the taxpayer over the years. Usually £100 per man woman and child per year from taxpayers (this year)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2084768/Gold-plated-council-pensions-to-cost-every-taxpayer-150.html

Gold-plated council pensions to cost every taxpayer £150

Every taxpayer is now liable for an extra £150 because councils can no longer meet the cost of funding their own gold-plated pensions,

it's just Central Government employees for whom the £1,000,000,000,000 current liability for future pensions has no provision and is held off balance sheet.

ONLY £1,000,000,000,000? Oh that's OK then. No need to worry then:rolleyes:

Generali

donaldtramp wrote: »

Yup, final salary indexed linked local government pensions are fully funded due to the contributions of the taxpayer over the years. Usually £100 per man woman and child per year from taxpayers (this year)

As you say, this is pat of the largesse of the taxpayer. At least the scheme is funded though.

donaldtramp wrote: »

ONLY £1,000,000,000,000? Oh that's OK then. No need to worry then:rolleyes:

The chances of all working Civil Servants getting close to what's been promised are vanishingly small IMO. The actual payout will be far less by necessity. As the payments are index linked, inflation won't solve the problem. Therefore the only other solution is for Civil Servants not to get their promised pensions.

Old_Slaphead

Generali wrote: »

I'm not a fan of Big Government. In the interests of accuracy I would like to point out that Local Government pensions are fully funded

Unusually, I have to disagree with you on this Generali. LG pensions purport to be fully funded but, in current climate, most have seriously large deficits which make the few private FS funding remaing look rock solid.

That's another commitment for the future taxpayer to support.

Generali

Old_Slaphead wrote: »

Unusually, I have to disagree with you on this Generali. LG pensions purport to be fully funded but, in current climate, most have seriously large deficits which make the few private FS funding remaing look rock solid.

That's another commitment for the future taxpayer to support.

Any way to know how big the unfunded liability is? Is it just as a result of falls in stock markets or are there unrealistic assumptions being made by actuaries about returns/longevity.

Old_Slaphead

Georgie4 wrote: »

With all due respect you have absolutely no idea what I earn for the job I do or what that would be worth outside the public sector.

You're absolutely correct and you may be able to earn more in private sector - that's why I asked you.

What does annoy me is that you think you can speak for the whole of the public sector without supplying some evidence when there is a plethora of information out there to support a contrary view to your's.

Tell me why you think the public sector gets a raw deal then we'll look at the information and see if it stands up to scruitiny.

If you don't think that your pension is 'gold plated' then take a look what's available to the rest of us.

Georgie4 wrote: »

I agree totally as someone who works in the public sector and could earn FAR more in the private sector , most of us earn below average national wage and have anything but gold plated pensions

Old_Slaphead

Generali wrote: »

Any way to know how big the unfunded liability is? Is it just as a result of falls in stock markets or are there unrealistic assumptions being made by actuaries about returns/longevity.

Dunno but my LA has pension assets of £800million and liabilities of £1.4bn. - thats at 03/2008 before the recent acceleration of stockmarket falls.

LAP underfunding last year was over £20bn

This year of course it's expected to be much worse but part (but I suspect not all) of shortfall may be recouped if markets pick up.