500,000 pensioners pay the price for the indebted.

jay3_2

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

I actually said "Brown-nosing", which is perhaps a rather weak play on words, reflective of the fact that Cooper and her husband Balls are close allies of Brown, and can always be relied upon to be "on message" for whatever he wants said, or not said. Regarding 'leftie', I don't think there can be much doubt that's what she is. I make no apology for it being a pejorative term for those of a left-leaning and liberal persuasion, because such people, in the guise of the Labour Party, have brough the country to its knees -- again.

The problem is, as soon as one employs such pejorative terms, half of one's audience is lost, as the political bias of the author is revealed, and rejected. Much better surely to simply rely upon logical argument based on evidence?

I wonder which particular brand of "lefties" has brought the USA to its knees? Some might argue that the Labour Party "sold out" to brazen capitalism, and sheepishly followed the doctrines laid out for it by preceeeding governments- unfettered, free market capitalism, that has turned out to be our true undoing?

Pobby

Glad I was was born when I was. Still have a piccy of me and my love at the time. Me with longhair, beads and the coolest leather jacket going. So cool that one guy offered me his Jeep in exchange lol.

Good education with a ton of discipline. I was no A grade student but the school got the best out of me. Sadly illness stopped my training to be a teacher but after recovery and some bum jobs I got with a small firm that gave me a great job and prospects. Within 6 years I became one of its directors. Same with my wife, worked for an international firm, they saw the potential and she was promoted.

Maybe it is just my experience but then hard work was rewarded. Buying a house? That seemed like no big deal in the 70`s. To me houses were very affordable on a pretty regular wage and that was close to London. We also had the bonus, as borrowers, that inflation diluted the debt.

All in all, looking back, most of the time it was fairly easy. I don`t think that we had the expectations I see in many youngsters now. Some I know, in there very early 20`s are saddled already with dumb sized mortgages in the effort to not miss the boat with getting on the property ladder. Sadly some will regret this imo.

GeorgeHowell

jay3 wrote: »

The problem is, as soon as one employs such pejorative terms, half of one's audience is lost, as the political bias of the author is revealed, and rejected. Much better surely to simply rely upon logical argument based on evidence?

I wonder which particular brand of "lefties" has brought the USA to its knees? Some might argue that the Labour Party "sold out" to brazen capitalism, and sheepishly followed the doctrines laid out for it by preceeeding governments- unfettered, free market capitalism, that has turned out to be our true undoing?

It was in fact intended to be a politically biased post, and if that means that some people instantly reject the argument, then so be it ! I am not minded to be even-handed about Yvette Cooper, or indeed about anyone in this atrocious apology for a government.

It certainly was not lefties who brought the world financial system to its knees. But it was the relative lefties of the Democrat Clinton regime and the lefties of New Labour who allowed themselves to be duped by the wide boys who now comprise a large proportion of bankers into believing that 'light touch' regulation was the way forward. It was New Labout that created the farcical FSA and muddied the water so much regarding regulation of the banks that in effect there wasn't any. In its zeal to shed its union-dominated/business sceptical image New Labour swung far too far the other way. The problem is that they don't understand business, since relatively few notable business people join the Labour Party, let alone have any influence in it. In addition, in both the US and the UK there has been an element of leftist thinking in encouragement of lending money to those who have only a slender chance of paying it back. This is in the interests if creating a 'fairer society' (ie trying to attract votes).

Capitalism works by greed and fear and needs a lot of regulation, but the trick is to achieve the regulation without strangling the markets. Anyone who believes in unfettered capitalism if for me, a member of the loony right.

jay3_2

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

It was in fact intended to be a politically biased post, and if that means that some people instantly reject the argument, then so be it ! I am not minded to be even-handed about Yvette Cooper, or indeed about anyone in this atrocious apology for a government.

It certainly was not lefties who brought the world financial system to its knees. But it was the relative lefties of the Democrat Clinton regime and the lefties of New Labour who allowed themselves to be duped by the wide boys who now comprise a large proportion of bankers into believing that 'light touch' regulation was the way forward. It was New Labout that created the farcical FSA and muddied the water so much regarding regulation of the banks that in effect there wasn't any. In its zeal to shed its union-dominated/business sceptical image New Labour swung far too far the other way. The problem is that they don't understand business, since relatively few notable business people join the Labour Party, let alone have any influence in it. In addition, in both the US and the UK there has been an element of leftist thinking in encouragement of lending money to those who have only a slender chance of paying it back. This is in the interests if creating a 'fairer society' (ie trying to attract votes).
quote]

"relative lefties of the Democrat Clinton regime" - Just remind me, who was president in the USA for the past 8 years? Could it possibly be that both Democrat and Republicans are to blame, and that both Conservative and Labour are also to blame?

This partisan barracking on one party does not in my opinion get us anywhere in avoiding this kind of mess in the future. We need to analyse the mistakes made, no matter who made them, and correct them. Otherwise, we really are up the creek. Personally, I really don't care which party is in power as long as they do this on my behalf.

GeorgeHowell

Originally Posted by jay3
"relative lefties of the Democrat Clinton regime" - Just remind me, who was president in the USA for the past 8 years? Could it possibly be that both Democrat and Republicans are to blame, and that both Conservative and Labour are also to blame?

This partisan barracking on one party does not in my opinion get us anywhere in avoiding this kind of mess in the future. We need to analyse the mistakes made, no matter who made them, and correct them. Otherwise, we really are up the creek. Personally, I really don't care which party is in power as long as they do this on my behalf.

I believe it is a known fact that Clinton coerced banks to make loans to minorities on grounds of political correctness, without the usual safeguards regarding ability to pay it back. The Bush regime did not apparently see fit to change that. But then, right wing though they were, the forces of political correctness in the US appear to have marched on unhampered during his tenure too.

The one lesson we learn from history is that the human race seldom learns from history.

jay3_2

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

I believe it is a known fact that Clinton coerced banks to make loans to minorities on grounds of political correctness, without the usual safeguards regarding ability to pay it back. The Bush regime did not apparently see fit to change that. But then, right wing though they were, the forces of political correctness in the US appear to have marched on unhampered during his tenure too.

The one lesson we learn from history is that the human race seldom learns from history.

Good, so you are agreeing that the Republican (non-Leftie) regime headed by G Bush jnr made a huge mistake in permitting banks to lend inappropriately? Therefore, both right and left-leaning administrations have made a mess of running the economy?

I never thought I would hear George Bush's tenure being described as PC - he'd be mortified!

I'd be very interested to see the evidence behind the extraordinary claim concerning the "coercion" of US banks to make loans without the usual safeguards - I haven't heard that claim before.

We may agree, however, on your final statement.

GeorgeHowell

jay3 wrote: »

Good, so you are agreeing that the Republican (non-Leftie) regime headed by G Bush jnr made a huge mistake in permitting banks to lend inappropriately? Therefore, both right and left-leaning administrations have made a mess of running the economy?

I never thought I would hear George Bush's tenure being described as PC - he'd be mortified!

I'd be very interested to see the evidence behind the extraordinary claim concerning the "coercion" of US banks to make loans without the usual safeguards - I haven't heard that claim before.

We may agree, however, on your final statement.

I've never tried to lay all blame for the present shambles on the left. But then again it's not just a failure of capitalism. It's partly down to a failure to adequately regulate capitalism and the leftist parties are as guilty here as the rightist ones so it seems. I doubt if Bush is personally PC, but even he did not seem willing or able to turn the tide. I have no evidence as such about the Clinton matter (I'm not a journalist so I don't need evidence !). But I've read it in a number of sources, including the UK press (not the Daily Mail !). Here's an uncorroborated link which provides some background :-
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080918143954AAzmOMH

Jennifer_Jane

jay3 wrote: »

GeorgeHowell wrote: »

This partisan barracking on one party does not in my opinion get us anywhere in avoiding this kind of mess in the future. We need to analyse the mistakes made, no matter who made them, and correct them. Otherwise, we really are up the creek. Personally, I really don't care which party is in power as long as they do this on my behalf.

Actually I disagree with this. We need to keep reminding people/ourselves even, of what has happened over the last year or so, because very soon - and I think it's already started (last night on TV), Labour will be telling us how wonderful they are - how they increased pensions for people (well, it may not be the law, but it's pretty much accepted that September is Basic State Pension increase month, so Labour would have been in huge trouble if they had reneged on that). So, I think we do need to stay, er, 'on message' with this.

Re Labour not understanding Business (Jay's post), they don't even understand housekeeping!

And, believe me, I am not inherently anti-Labour, just this lot.

Jen
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GeorgeHowell

Jennifer_Jane wrote: »

jay3 wrote: »

Actually I disagree with this. We need to keep reminding people/ourselves even, of what has happened over the last year or so, because very soon - and I think it's already started (last night on TV), Labour will be telling us how wonderful they are - how they increased pensions for people (well, it may not be the law, but it's pretty much accepted that September is Basic State Pension increase month, so Labour would have been in huge trouble if they had reneged on that). So, I think we do need to stay, er, 'on message' with this.

Re Labour not understanding Business (George's post), they don't even understand housekeeping!

And, believe me, I am not inherently anti-Labour, just this lot.

Jen
x

Actually it wasn't me that said it, it was Jay3.

And I am inherently anti-Labour -- in fact I think that they are inherently unfit to govern.

Jennifer_Jane

Thanks, George, have edited the post.

Can I also bring something up which seems to have been forgotten: at one of the Labour conferences, someone (Tony Blair?) was heckled by an 80-year-old lifelong Labour supporter. He was very quickly hustled out of the room and out of the building by security thugs.

Reminded me of the 1970's in South Africa - the frightening start of a dictatorial society.

We need to remember these things. As Harold Wilson said 'A week is a long time in the minds of the public' or something like that.

Jen
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