Joint tenant with mum - does she need to make a will?

freeasabird

anniehanlon wrote: »

We have had this problem in our family. Should your mother die then the house automatically goes to you if your mother died intestate.=. Would you siblings be annoyed that the house would revert wholly to you or are they aware that this will happen.

Two of them were on the lease when there was a demand made on the property that they would have been liable for. They chose to come off the lease. One other sibling was given the opportunity by me to come in on the mortgage and be a joint tenant with me and my mum but didn't want to do it. My other siblings haven't expressed any interest in getting any money from the property. Our main concern is that mum is ok but my experiences with other relatives has taught me that when it comes to money, sometimes people can forget about family loyalties.

EdInvestor

freeasabird wrote: »

Thank you. One other question, if my mum went into a care home. (I'd die before I let that happen but you never know what circumstances life brings you. I'm not always that well myself). Do I have to sell the house to provide for her care?

You need to change the way you own the home to "tenants in common" not "joint tenants". The problem is that the care rules protect the right of spouses to stay in the house, and various other individuals, such as people over 60, and dependants.But the rules wouldn't protect you (unless you are 60+).So the possibility is the council could force you to sell the house so Mum could get her share to pay for her care.

However, if you arrange it so that your Mum only owns 50% of the property (via TIC) rather than the whole property jointly with you, then the legal position is different.The only person who would be willing to buy her 50% is you and if you arent willing then the value of her share is nil and it can't be used to pay for care.

Surely if your Mum realised you could lose the home if she doesn't make this legal change she would be willing to do it?

monkeyspanner

That further complicates matters as if your mother dies intestate her share of the house could go to your siblings who have not helped financially. In addition you paying the mortgage could lead to an expensive legal argument over your actual ownership share.

freeasabird

EdInvestor wrote: »

You need to change the way you own the home to "tenants in common" not "joint tenants". The problem is that the care rules protect the right of spouses to stay in the house, and various other individuals, such as people over 60, and dependants.But the rules wouldn't protect you (unless you are 60+).So the possibility is the council could force you to sell the house so Mum could get her share to pay for her care.

However, if you arrange it so that your Mum only owns 50% of the property (via TIC) rather than the whole property jointly with you, then the legal position is different.The only person who would be willing to buy her 50% is you and if you arent willing then the value of her share is nil and it can't be used to pay for care.

Surely if your Mum realised you could lose the home if she doesn't make this legal change she would be willing to do it?

Thank you EdInvestor, this is a lot more complicated than I thought. My mother's attitude is not to worry about tomorrow. I'm her daughter. She knows I'll be there for her and what happens after she's gone doesn't really bother her that much. I know this sounds harsh but I've tried to talk to her about this and she just pretends I haven't said anything. A friend even suggested that I could do all this and she might well leave her share of the house to my other sibings anyway especially as they have given her grandchildren.

Thanks everyone for the advice you've given me.

McKneff

As it is at the moment she cant leave her 'share' to anyone if she dies intestate it automatically comes to you. She can only leave her personal belongings, cash etc.

freeasabird

anniehanlon wrote: »

As it is at the moment she cant leave her 'share' to anyone if she dies intestate it automatically comes to you. She can only leave her personal belongings, cash etc.

So that sounds as if being a joint tenant is ok for the time being. She hasn't got much money (I'll just be glad if she doesn't leave any debts) and I'm quite happy for my siblings to have her personal belongings as long as I can have a few for sentimental reasons.

sandraroffey

you really need to get it changed to tenants in common asap. dreadful thing to say but she could get run over by a bus tomorrow. at least one of you is thinking clearly but it needs you both to do this. and you should also think about getting enduring power of attorney over her affairs, in case she should be mentally infirm. and make those wills.

Baggysdad

Hold on, hold on.

The advice given by Edinvestor is really, really bad advice.

By changing to tenants in common, mums share of the house forms part of her estate on her death and if mum won't make a Will, her share of the estate will be divided equally between the OP and her siblings.

As regards the value of mums share of the house if she needs care while OP is still alive, provided the OP doesn't want to sell the house, it should be valued at Nil irrespective of the way the property is owned. In fact the case law which set this precedent involved two sisters who owned a property as joint tenants. Google 'Special Commissioners v Palfrey' for more information. Subsequent case law extended this principle to people who owned as tenants in common.

As regards whether mum should make a Will, I guess it depends on what she has other than the house - are there bank accounts worth more than £5,000, if so, a Will will make the releases of these accounts easier and quicker.
Does she want her bits and pieces that are in the house (which she and the OP might consider to belong to the OP) to be divided between all the children. I have been involved in the administration of an estate where this happened and things got very messy, arguments about what belonged to the deceased and should be divided up and what didn't and shouldn't.

sloughflint

anniehanlon wrote: »

As it is at the moment she cant leave her 'share' to anyone if she dies intestate it automatically comes to you. She can only leave her personal belongings, cash etc.

Annie, you've mentioned 'intestate' in a couple of posts here.

Is is how the property is owned ( joint tenancy) that determines whether the share automatically passes to the co-owner or not.A will would make no difference to this.
HTH.

margaretclare

sloughflint wrote: »

Annie, you've mentioned 'intestate' in a couple of posts here.

It is how the property is owned ( joint tenancy) that determines whether the share automatically passes to the co-owner or not. A will would make no difference to this.

HTH.

Yes, this is right.

Having title to a property in joint names and not as tenants-in-common means that both parties own it 100%, same as a joint bank account, and whoever is the survivor gets to continue with that 100% ownership.

We have title to this property in our joint names and there are reasons why we did that.

The OP said that there is not much other money, only a few personal possessions, keepsakes etc. So nothing really to worry about (except who pays for the funeral!)

I've heard this argument before, that it's 'morbid', or 'tempting providence', to make a will. It's a fairly widespread view, not one I can sympathise with, but not an unusual one!