Stuctural problem

Clarity09

Hi folks, hope you guys can give me a fresh pair of eyes and view on whether the following problem is the freeholders responsibility or ours as leaseholders. Its hard to make it brief so bare with me the saga....

I own a ground floor maisonette (leasehold) had it 5 years.

Since June 2008 I have experienced some minor but consistent leakage problems through my kitchen ceiling as a result of the leaseholder upstairs installing a new bathroom with shoddy workmen from a local bathroom company. Tiler nailing plasterboard to wall through washing machine extract pipe. (No problem until bathroom is refunctioning and owner does a load) then whoosh......another event entailed a blocked loo. Plumber plunging blockage that overflowed on to floor and dripped through because tiling had not been cemented around base of pan. You get the drift. Not massive ceiling cave but enough events (7 in total) to stain and slightly crack my plasterboard.

Each time I reported it to on site worker and/or upstairs guy. Stopped the cause and no problem 'we will skim ceiling and repaint'.

Personal events on my part delayed any formal action. So now a bit less bereaved and physically recouperated and more able to sort out the ceiling situation I am going full steam ahead.

The bathroom company is long gone and paid off. Not that its relevant but they have an everybody absolves everybody kind of contract with their 'recommended' builder.

An increase in sound as well made me do some research into ceilings ( I have commercial interior design background) The pipes haven't been lagged and impact and airborne sound is high, suggesting no insulation, nor proper sound absorbancy material to underside of floor tiles. In any case it is much worse than pre-bathroom. Spotted the new Part E building regs (2004) regarding new 48db ratings in flats and managed to negotiate upstairs to go halves in a new sound rated suspended ceiling. Btw we are good friends and realise we both inherited some shonky pre-owner DIY in other areas too. So share current responsibility.

I know your first comments will be angry on my behalf get him to pay for it all or go insurance route, but heres the thing. I have neither the time nor the state of mind to have a paper trail of assessors or unknown builders doing further shoddy work and the noise is doing my head in. I need it done now. So I ask you to put aside the financial angle for one moment as I haven't got to the crux of the matter. In addition, he has his flat on the market. So he is happy to get it sorted and then sell on.

As is common in 'Old' buildings, you open a can of worms when you go digging. This is Edwardian. Converted in 1990. Since the location of the joists to hang the new ceiling acoustic brackets was confusing, my RELIABLE builder opened up foot square investigation hole (Friday 27 Feb 2009). Ended up taking down existing ceiling and exposing a much larger structural problem. Joists have piggy backed joists bolted in part alongside each other (where some part must have been rotten and cut off). Some have had their integrity reduced by a lap joint at the ends and are splitting and some end mid-air! No kidding. Upstairs kitchen stud wall runs along the length of my kitchen and is literally support by air. Hence their sloping kitchen floor.....

So we have some building solutions using various sleeves and angle brackets new cross beams back to party walls running longways in the space to support the above. Additional noggins. etc. A temporary support post is in the middle of my kitchen dont worry. I am about to take site photographs of the prop and exposed under belly of the ceiling.

So heres my question and feel free to bring up others. We have a lease that pretty much absolves the freeholder and that sets out the leaseholders go splits on all external works.

However is there any platform for a freeholder to have a building in their charge that is structurally unsound? The ceiling literally could have fallen on me and the increase in impact sounds and floor creaks were certain signs of that slowly happen.

If it is solely our responsibility, do we even inform the freeholder of the work I am undertaking to rectify it? Or is this now a building insurance issue. can I proceed with the work on the basis it has to be done for me to live, pay the builder and claim the money back with evidence of receipts?

okay phew. soz it was so long?

Fire_Fox

I suspect in it's current temporarily safe condition the upstairs flat is not mortgageable and therefore unsaleable.

Your lease was presumably checked thoroughly by your conveyancer and you were informed of your responsibilities re: maintenance costs, ground rent etc.? Freeholders don't usually pay for repairs, they generally employ managing agents who levy service charges and are responsible for spending these monies to maintain the communal parts of the building. I don't understand why you think it will be quicker and/ or easier to get the freeholder to sort out the current mess than do it yourself. Surely you can't think they will just stump up no questions?

Did you or your upstairs neighbour have a full structural survey done before you purchased the leasehold? If so you may have a case against the surveyor, otherwise you must inform the buildings insurance company ASAP. Any works you get done without consulting them (barring emergency shoring up) may not be insured. If it's a clear-cut case the insurers will be fine with you. If it's unclear who is at fault you may have a fight on your hands.

I would also inform the freeholder to be on the safe side (just copy them in on all communication), depending upon the terms of your lease you may even need their permission to alter the fabric of the building. You might also inform the mortgage company as, if they have a significant financial interest in a property, they may wish to act to get this resolved.

Clarity09

Thanks for your comments. You certainly highlight a couple of points. It just astounds me that at some stage in the conversion, a building must have been approved by building control and clearly doesn't comply.

Bit of a grey area for me, the way forward.

I had a homebuyers report (£616) done by RICS approved surveyor in November 2003. No mention of this problem, some other minor brickwork cracks in another area under a window sill that have been rectified. Am in process of enquiring with neighbour re: his survey in 2005, whether it was structural.

Its looking like I need to notify the buildings insurance company. Just read the exclusions section and I quote 'the major exclusions are:

• wear and tear
• faulty or defective workmanship
• Wet or dry rot
• Collapse or cracking of a building or structure
• terrorism'

So that doesn't bode well for financing the structural work does it?

Anyone know the process? So I contact them and in the mean time do I still get my builder to carry on? or is it a case of assessor first. (you know the score builder is only available this week then tied up for 2 months. Meantime only a sheet of ply and vinyl between me and upstairs...

27col

Surely the cost cannot be solely down to you. It might be your ceiling, but it is someone else's floor, and the problem affects both of you.

Clarity09

The neighbour came down tonight. I think is begining to understand the gravity of the situation. It may have been when I said no prospective buyer can get a mortgage on this in its current state. Also wont be long before his new bathroom tiles pop as there is no stable support under them. Started with I am not paying for any of this and nor should you! And came back after half hour with a friend and started taking photos of the structure to email to friends father 'retired structural eng'.

Unfortunately who is reponsible fee wise will very much depend on the lease. It is certainly understood that the parameters under the freeholders responsibility would be to provide a 'fit for purpose' building and clearly its not.

My plan for tomorrow is a) hold on my builder repairing it apart from making it safe to b) structural surveyor coming at 9.30am. c) will call building control at 9am and request emergency site visit.
d) report it to the buildings insurance and e) speak to my solicitor to get familiar with my lease f) let freeholder know somehow.

Any other suggestions or first ports of call are welcome. Thanks a lot for your comments.

Fire_Fox

Clarity09 wrote: »

Thanks for your comments. You certainly highlight a couple of points. It just astounds me that at some stage in the conversion, a building must have been approved by building control and clearly doesn't comply.

Bit of a grey area for me, the way forward.

I had a homebuyers report (£616) done by RICS approved surveyor in November 2003. No mention of this problem, some other minor brickwork cracks in another area under a window sill that have been rectified. Am in process of enquiring with neighbour re: his survey in 2005, whether it was structural.

Its looking like I need to notify the buildings insurance company. Just read the exclusions section and I quote 'the major exclusions are:

• wear and tear
• faulty or defective workmanship
• Wet or dry rot
• Collapse or cracking of a building or structure
• terrorism'

So that doesn't bode well for financing the structural work does it?

Anyone know the process? So I contact them and in the mean time do I still get my builder to carry on? or is it a case of assessor first. (you know the score builder is only available this week then tied up for 2 months. Meantime only a sheet of ply and vinyl between me and upstairs...

It may be worth contacting RICS and the surveyor (enquiry not complaint) after you have read through the paperwork you were given at the time, but you are on a sticky wicket. Basically it's a valuation more than a protection against situations such as these; IMO they are a false economy in an older property.

"A Homebuyer Survey and Valuation (HSV), also known as a Homebuyer’s Report, is a survey completed to a standard format set out by RICS – it’s most suitable for conventional properties built within the last 150 years, which are in reasonable condition.
It doesn’t detail every aspect of the property, and only focuses on urgent matters needing attention. It’s not usually suitable for properties in need of renovation, or if you’re planning major alterations.

An HSV includes details of:

• The general condition of the property
• Any major faults in accessible parts of the building that may affect the value
• Any urgent problems that need inspecting by a specialist before you sign a contract
• Results of tests for damp in the walls
• Damage to timbers – including woodworm or rot
• The condition of any damp-proofing, insulation and drainage (though drains aren’t tested)
• The estimated cost of rebuilding the property for insurance purposes
• The value of the property on the open market."

http://www.rics.org/Practiceareas/Property/Residential/Homebuyer_Survey_and_Valuation_Report.htm

It may also be worth you contacting building control, to see what records they have of the time of conversion and whether you have any protection there. Also the buildings insurance, and perhaps the freeholder/ managing agents to see if you can find out who carried out the conversion, and the mortgage company as they won't want their investment to be devalued any more than you do.

spakkker

How much did your builder quote? Doesn't sound like that much work to me- it sounds like he's after an insurance job.
Building control will be best source of info, after your builder.
How much lease left?
Get another builder in to give a quote.

Clarity09

man what a day.

Notified Freeholders agent via voicemail and brief discussion with secretary. He was going to return call at noon. um yes 5.51pm on my clock. No show. i take it to mean he is off doing his homework on the lease as to how to cover freeholders a..se

Setout problem to building control officer. He wasn't interested in coming out and slapping a dangerous structures notice. Says the last documentation converting 2 flats was approved May 1970.

Just said get a structural engineer to design beam calcs submit building notice application and they will inspect.

Spoke to my solicitor about details in lease. She will read it in more detail, however for now spotted clauses ground floor owns lower half of joist....to be continued. Pretty much full of clauses about costs halved between leaseholders..

Sadly no Saint Freeholders on white horse arriving to rescue moi!